21st April 2005
To: Patrick Durst
Senior Forestry Officer
FAO Regional Office for Asia and the Pacific
39 Phra Atit Road, Bangkok 10200, Thailand
Tel: (66-2) 697 4000
Fax: (66-2) 697 4445
Email: [email protected]
cc: others
Dear Mr Durst,
I would like to point out inaccuracies in the document below. I have interspersed my comments after the text in question. It is important that accurate information is conveyed to key bodies such as the UN. Please respond to my corrections and inform as to what action is being taken to correct the misleading and mistaken facts in this report.
Yours faithfully,
B J Rosser
West Calder Tasmania
Australia
The document in question:
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/007/ae542e/ae542e00.htm
MANAGING AMIDST CONFLICT: THE HUON DISTRICT FORESTS OF TASMANIA John Dargavel
Asia-Pacific Forestry Commission IN SEARCH OF EXCELLENCE: Exemplary forest management in Asia and the Pacific
The Text in question:
Dargavel: “Forest management under scrutiny
In March 2004, 10 000 people marched through the streets of the state capital, Hobart, protesting against the continued clear-felling of old-growth forests. They were particularly incensed about felling giant trees, some over 80 metres tall, in the Styx Valley. Their protest was the latest in 30 years of public and political controversies about how the forests should be used. A week later, a similar number of people marched through Launceston, Tasmania’s second city, in support of the forest industries and the employment they provide.”
BjR: It is important to point out that a good portion of the forest workers that turned up to the rally a week later were PAID to turn up. They received a day’s pay. The industry rally was held on a working day (Tuesday, I think). Many received free provision of transport to the event and beer was supplied to keep ‘the troups’ entertained until Howard turned up. This situation can’t be compared directly to the 10,000 residents who turned up to march in the Streets of Hobart – as Dargavel has tried to do. The first rally was compiled of ordinary (unpaid) citizens who marched on the WEEKEND. I was one of them. In the industry rally the key Labor Government politicians were present along with key industry players. There would have been significant pressure on some individuals to turn up on that weekday or lose logging contracts and the like.
Dargavel: “The forest industry is the largest employer in Tasmania, a state with a higher rate of unemployment than Australia generally.”
BjR: The forest industry is NOT the largest employer in Tasmania! According the the Australian Bureau of Statistics:
” In 2002-03, there was an annual average 200,700 employed persons in Tasmania, comprising 110,300 males and 90,400 females. During this period, Retail trade was the largest industry in terms of the annual average number of persons employed with 32,400 employees (16.1% of employed persons). This was followed by Health and community services with 22,700 persons employed (11.3%); Manufacturing with 22,200 persons (11.1%); Agriculture, forestry and fishing with 15,900 persons (7.9%); and Property and business services with 15,100 persons (7.5%). ”
Dargavel: To try and resolve the environmental controversies across the country, the federal and state governments agreed on a National Policy Statement that aimed at: having a system of “Comprehensive, Adequate and Representative” conservation reserves; sustainably managing forests outside the conservation reserves – such as the Huon state forests; and developing an internationally competitive timber industry. The policy was followed by a Regional Forest Agreement process that identified the conservation reserves and the areas to be used for commercial purposes. It defined the tasks of forest management, established guidelines and assigned responsibilities.
BjR: The provisions of The National Policy Statement’ have not been implemented.
“The unprecedented land clearing of the past few years, overwhelmingly for plantation establishment, is defended in part by a logic which claims that the reserve system for forests is Comprehensive, Adequate and Representative (a CAR reserve system). The stratification of reserve targets stressed by researchers like Awimbo et al. (1996) was built into the Commonwealth’s reserve targets document for the RFA – the JANIS criteria (Commonwealth of Australia 1997). A particular requirement of the JANIS criteria designed to address potential reservation bias was the stipulation that reservation targets should be applied on a bioregional basis, of which eight were recognised in Tasmania at the time (Thackway and Cresswell 1994).
However, of all the regions of Australia to have signed RFA’s, Tasmania was the only one where a decision was made not to comply with the JANIS criteria to develop reservation targets on a bioregional basis. This occurred after statements were made at public forums run by RFA bureaucrats that the RFA would be developed on a bioregional basis.
So next time you read an ad by the logging industry citing reservation figures, bear in mind that it probably reflects:
* an analysis which is not scientifically accepted;
* a set of reservation targets developed contrary to Commonwealth policy at the time;
* a public participation process in which the basic rules were changed mid-stream; and
* the only RFA in the country underpinned by a system almost guaranteed to result in reservation bias. ..”
Reference: MISLEADING NUMBERS
LANDCLEARING BULLETIN #12
31 October 2003
Tasmanian Conservation Trust Landclearing Campaign [email protected]
[email protected]
Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:22:12 +1100
Dargavel: “Once logging is finished in each coupe, foresters burn the slash and remaining understorey to create a bare “ash bed” onto which seeds are dropped from aircraft to regenerate the forest. Steve Davis reports that this process is generally successful, although at times some wet south-facing slopes are difficult to burn and have to be planted with nursery-grown seedlings.”
BjR: Mostly native forests are clearfelled and replaced with MONOCULTURE Eucalyptus Nitens plantation trees that are harvested every 12-20 years for woodchip.
Dargavel: To prevent wallabies and other native animals from eating the growing seedlings, some areas are treated with “10-80” poison.
BjR: The ‘forest’ industry, when they purchased agricultural land for conversion to monoculture tree plantations actually destroyed fences erected by the previous owners of the land (farmers) designed to keep out browsing animals such as wallaby. Who should pay the cost for that action? At the very least the industries destruction of this vital infrastructure should be mentioned.
Dargavel: The new crops of trees are to be grown on rotations of 80 to 100 years. On about seven percent of the area, where slopes are gentle, thinning operations are carried out at mid-rotation.
BjR: see my previous comments above. We are looking mostly at 12-20 year rotation of monoculture tree plantations. This has enormous implications for waste management, pesticide residues and water takeup by these trees.
Dargavel: 4. Operational plans A Forest Practices Plan is written for every coupe before it is logged. An experienced forester, trained in the provisions of the Forest Practices Code, prepares each plan. Manuals covering heritage values, biodiversity, geomorphology and other considerations guide the foresters in writing the plans. Each plan consists of a detailed topographical map showing the area to be felled, the boundaries of any patches to be given special care or not to be felled, designs for roads, tracks and log landings, and the general direction in which logs are to be hauled to landings.
BjR: This is not the practice on the ground. See my submission on the proposed Gunns Ltd pulpmill under the ‘forestry’ link at www.members.iinet.com.au/~rkildar1
The Forest Practices Plan rarely provides an near adequate description of biodiversity, heritage values etc. Al so see Bill Manning’s testimony (ie the experiences of the Forest Practices Board auditor) to the Rural and Regional Affairs Transport References Committee ‘Australian forest plantations’.
Dargavel: “In the Huon Forest District, the audits have found a compliance rate of more than 90 percent in the last three years.
However, Gary King, Environmental Planning Manager for Forestry Tasmania rebutted such criticism: “Every coupe is surveyed for flora communities and fauna habitat including nesting sites for eagles and goshawks, and the impact of “10-80″ is monitored,” he pointed out.”
BjR: ‘In your dreams!’ See the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee report on ‘Australian forest plantations – A review of Plantations for Australia: The 2020 Vision’.
Page 144: “8.206 The Committee recommends that, within 12 months of the publication of the Commonwealth’s response to the Final Recommendations Report on the ‘Inquiry on the Progress with Implementation of the Tasmanian Forest Agreement (1997), that this Committee conduct a review of operations under, and the enforcement of, the Forest Practices Code. The Committee should be able to seek expert advice in the conduct of the inquiry and the Committee would expect the immediate co-operation of both State and Commonwealth Governments. In the absence of full co-operation, the Committee foreshadows that it will recommend an immediate independent review with more compelling and drastic powers.”
The RRAT Committee accepted the testimony of the former auditor from the Forest Practices Board in Tasmania – Bill Manning. Manning described widespread corruption and massive failure to implement the provisions of the very weak Forest Practices Code.
Dargavel: “..the first five-yearly review of the Regional Forest Agreement has recently been completed. It found that most forest management issues are being satisfactorily addressed, and made only a few recommendations for issues where “further progress needs to be made…”
BjR: The Resource Planning and Development Commission would say that wouldn’t they. No – one else is.
Dargavel: “The municipal government, the Huon Valley Council, sponsors a “Healthy Rivers Program” and has a similar attitude to measuring performance. The Council collates water quality measurements taken by government agencies as well as those taken by local schools and community groups. One of its initial findings is that the quality of water coming from the forest is virtually unaffected by the forest operations. Steve Davis and his team also monitor water quality in all streams immediately below sites where chemicals are applied, and the results are published annually. However, Adam Burling from the Huon Environment Centre remains worried about pollution and thinks that the water should be more rigorously tested for residues of the herbicides and fertilizers used in the plantations…”
BjR: See the message archives of the Tasmanian Clean Water Network for a description of the corruption of the pesticide regulatory processes in Tasmania. The water isn’t being tested for the full range of chemicals used in the catchment. This is because no – one knows what they all are. Adequate records are not kept. Many chemicals are toxic at undetectable levels and so on.
Public consultation and participation
Public consultation is an established part of Australian planning practice, but may not affect the outcomes of the political process. For example, Tasmania undertook the extensive, multi-sector, “Tasmania Together” public consultation from 2000 to 2003, that proposed to “end clear felling in areas of high conservation value old-growth forest by January 1, 2003, and cease all clear felling in oldgrowth forests by 2010”. However, the government had to balance this with economic and employment pressures, and it continued as it had agreed to under its Regional Forest Agreement with the federal government.
BjR: The economic basis for the clearfell and convert to plantation industry has not been established by the Government. The Australian Conservation Foundation report entitled ‘Forestry and National Competition Policy’ raised serious questions on this issue as did the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee report on ‘Australian forest plantations. Costs incurred by the industry need to be priced – this must include water usage – in order to see if this industry offers a net economic benefit.
Dargavel: Conclusion
Forest management in Southern Tasmania has developed a detailed planning, monitoring, auditing and reporting system in response to international and national agreements and policies. It operates in a climate of widespread community debate and general dissatisfaction over the felling of old-growth forests. It is under intense scrutiny from environmental and other groups with very high expectations of what should – and can – be achieved. Although the context is often contentious, forest management generally proceeds in a clear, orderly and professional way.
BjR: The conclusion that forest management generally proceeds in a ‘clear, orderly and professional way’ has no basis in fact. Further, the expection of pesticide-free drinking water and protection of native biodiversity cannot be described as ‘very high expectations’. These are survival issues and are presented to our Government and industry in the context of a massively deteriorating quality of life and living environment and a global ecological crisis.
Frank Strie
April 28, 2005 at 04:55
To keep it very brief:
“Brenda,you deserve the global community awareness award!”
Thank you
Frank
Dave Groves
April 29, 2005 at 00:52
Well done as usual Brenda.
Lateral thinking is a wonderful thing.
It will be interesting to see the reply.
Cheers,
Dave
Mark
April 29, 2005 at 14:26
John Dargavel has let the forest industries down. Terry Edwards, Barry Chipman and an array of forest agri-scientists (glorified farmers) argue the merits of proven science over emotional claptrap.
The use of the Huon Healthy River report as scientific support for a clean forest industry highlights his scientific shortcomings. Evan Rolley also failed this test on the same issue.
I have previously written on this subject in The Mercury and Tasmanian Times. The Huon Healthy Rivers report examined the presence of phosphates and their link to oxygen levels and algal blooms. The main contributing factors within the Huon are fish farms (fish poop), orchards (animal poop) and town sewerage (people poop).
This was pointed out to the Huon Valley councillors when the findings were presented. It is elementary high school science (chemistry, not tree farming). Therein lies the problem. Some people must have missed Year 10.
So much for Dargavel’s poop.
Dr Kevin Bonham
April 29, 2005 at 14:56
Brenda – what is your source for your claim that “Mostly native forests are clearfelled and replaced with MONOCULTURE Eucalyptus Nitens plantation trees that are harvested every 12-20 years for woodchip”? I expect evidence from you that more than 50% of current forest-industry-conducted logging in Tasmania is clearfelling resulting in the establishment of E. nitens monoculture plantations resulting solely in the production of woodchips.
When we’ve got that one out of the way, we might move onto some other issues from the above.
Brenda Rosser
April 30, 2005 at 08:01
Kevin Bonham said:
“I expect evidence from you that more than 50% of current forest-industry-conducted logging in Tasmania is clearfelling resulting in the establishment of E. nitens monoculture plantations resulting solely in the production of woodchips..”
In partial reply, Kevin – and in relation to PUBLIC land:
Source: Forest Practices Board Annual Reports 1999-2000, 2000-2001 (according to the Wilderness Society). I quote:
“73% of public native forests clear-felled were replaced by plantation or some other form of non-forest – ie the forest was cleared!”
See: http://wilderness.org.au/campaigns/forests/tasmania/revsub_c/
This is part of the Wilderness Society’s submission to the Review of the RFA in Tasmania – a document one would expect Dr John Dargavel to be aware of given his comments on the outcome of that review process.
There have been newspaper reports that the tree plantation industry are having severe difficulty acquiring private land for further establishment of their green deserts. And that the Tasmanian Government has moved in to save the day by providing State (native) forested land to fill the breach. I will try to find the newspaper clippings.
Did I say that monoculture tree plantations were used ‘solely’ for the production of woodchips? I think you’re misreading me here, Kevin. It appears that this may very well be the case – currently – for Eucalypty Niten plantations in Tasmania. If not then please clarify.
Dr Kevin Bonham
April 30, 2005 at 15:38
Brenda, the problem with the source you cite is that it refers only to the proportion of clearfelled native forests that are turned into non-forest uses (not all of those plantation in any case). It says nothing whatsoever about what proportion of native forests are clearfelled in the first place.
It also says nothing about what proportion of those forests that are clearfelled for plantation are replaced with a plantation species other than Eucalyptus nitens, such as Eucalyptus globulus or Pinus radiata.
As such the source you cite contributes nothing to your claim that “Mostly native forests are clearfelled and replaced with MONOCULTURE Eucalyptus Nitens plantation trees that are harvested every 12-20 years for woodchip.” You have not even got past first base, which is to establish that most native forests that are logged are clearfelled.
And “it appears that this may very well be the case – currently – for Eucalypty [sic] Niten [sic] plantations in Tasmania.” is just nowhere near good enough, by the standards you attempted to apply in another thread. Your claim, you provide the evidence!
Brenda Rosser
May 1, 2005 at 04:28
Dear Kevin,
I believe that the statement: “73% of public native forests clear-felled were replaced by plantation or some other form of non-forest.” Was quite significant and shocking. It may even be an underestimate from the Forest Practices Board??
The truth is out there. In this case on my backdoorstep and spread across the North West hinterland in Tasmania. Conversion of rainforest, blackwood and other native species to plantation – of the Eucalypt Niten variety (in the last 10 years). Much of the forest behind Preolenna and on the East side of the Inglis was deep red myrtle. Personal observation is legitimate in a climate of media, industry and Government spindoctoring but I’m sure there are many other individuals and organisations who can verify this reality, and further afield.
Many Tasmanians want to know precisely what is happening to our native forests Statewide. I have more information which I can post at the end of the day which is related to this topic. But in the meantime I’ve heard that you have contacts with the ‘forest’ industry, Kevin.
Can you get all this information from the industry and/or Government? If so, could you please post it here?
It must be in the public domain, surely? Perhaps Dr John Dargavel will provide the source for his assertions? And is it truthful??
Dr Dargavel has not responded to my emails as yet.
Kevin if you have any difficulties, please let us all know. (For the record, I’ve had enormous trouble trying to get information from council and Forestry Tasmania about the state and extent of our forests and plantations).
Brenda Rosser
May 1, 2005 at 11:44
Further information gleaned – native forests to plantations:
First, it need to be pointed out that there are distinct problems with the Huon District Forest Management Plan 2000. Whilst the plan states that “clearfelling, high intensity burning and aerial re-seeding will be the ‘predominant’ timber harvesting method used in the Plan Area.” It also says the following:
* the extent of plantation establishment over the 10 year period will be equal to the amount of forest logged and regenerated.
* areas for plantation establishment will include areas currently covered by native forest.
* all areas for plantation establishment are not identified yet.
Then there’s the problem with definitions of key words. Plantations are called ‘forests’. ‘Regeneration’ has no definition, only the term ‘silvicultural regeneration’.
There is no real indication as to the planned extent of conversion from native forest to plantation. Only the sentence about ‘forests’ being predominantly ‘reseeded’…which is not a wording I find terribly reassuring in the light of Forestry Tasmania’s failure to identify where the plantation expansion is to go and the culture of lies within the industry that Bill Manning referred to in his Senate testimony (see below).
And then there’s the problem with the fact that the Huon District Forest Management Plan only refers to the operations of Forestry Tasmania in that area. Other ‘forestry’ operators – Gunns Ltd, Forest Enterprises and the like – are not mentioned by Dargavel with respect to the Huon district. Therefore the reader cannot ascertain the extent to which native forests are retained and regenerated in a manner that retains all of their original biodiversity.
Dargavel’s and FT’s documents are misleading to say the least.
But let us revisit the testimony of our long time auditor on the Forest Practices Board in Tasmania, Bill Manning:
“..no silvicultural outcome other than the clear felling of native forest for plantation establishment of exotic introduced plantation species..”
His words in context:
“From my extensive experience in the forestry industry, I believe that the implementation of the regional forest agreement and 2020 vision have led, first, to the weakening of the Forest Practices Code by making a lie of the claim that it is world’s best practice; secondly, to corruption of forest management in Tasmania such that there is no enforcement of this weakened code of forest practice and no silvicultural outcome other than the clear felling of native forest for
plantation establishment of exotic introduced plantation species; thirdly, to the RFA and 2020 vision manipulating the development of an internal auditing system which has led to the misleading of the Tasmanian parliament; fourthly, to the
decimation of habitat for endangered species in Tasmania, in particular the giant freshwater crayfish and other engaeus species of burrowing crayfish, not to mention many other rare examples of Tasmanian flora and fauna; and, finally, to a culture within the Tasmanian forestry industry
of bullying, cronyism, secrecy and lies.”
Reference: Manning’s testimony to the RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRANSPORT REFERENCES COMMITTEE, Reference: Plantation forests industry WEDNESDAY, 8 OCTOBER 2003
Dr Kevin Bonham
May 15, 2005 at 09:52
I have no idea if anyone other than those few subscribed is still reading this thread (I have been away for two weeks).
For the record such contacts as I have within the forestry industry are predominantly in the area of animal ecology, not the sort of material Brenda is referring to. I see no reason to go doing Brenda’s work for her gratis though doubtless I would be happy to do it for a suitable fee! In the meantime Brenda has still provided no useful evidence to back her claim about the majority of native forest harvesting being clearfall for rapid-rotation E. nitens plantations – I suspect because this claim was actually false. Manning’s comment about silvicultural outcomes, a generalisation unaccompanied by figures, is simply obvious hyperbole.
Dr Kevin Bonham
May 18, 2005 at 17:05
Sigh. The natives are getting desperate I see. Dear gutless pseudonym (“Gerry Mander”), if you would like to play the I’ve-seen-more-of-Tasmania-than-you-have game (and have some way of proving your side of it) I will be more than happy to kick your presumptuous butt. I know quite a deal about the plantations of the northwest, including those of Oldina, West Takone, Lapoinya, Oonah etc, because I once spent five pleasant winter weeks researching their invertebrate ecology, and have been back to some of them since. Please don’t let such facts interrupt your sad and ignorant posturing.
Brenda claimed that the majority of native forest harvested was clearfelled for E. nitens plantations. Even if every forest clearfelled was converted to E. nitens (which it isn’t) she would still have to prove that most forests harvested were clearfelled. As it happens, you don’t normally see plantations dominated by native species because the normal method of regenerating logged forest to natives is through regrowth rather than plantations. However if you wish to go out to the Togari block near Smithton you will see plenty of plantations of a certain Eucalyptus globulus, a species that is native to Tasmania (although the particular strain of it used in the plantations isn’t.) I have also seen small areas of plantations of other native eucalypts and of blackwood elsewhere. Try keeping your eyes open more when driving, Gerry; sleep apnoea is a killer. (As is posting on the internet with your brain shut down.)
There are massive differences from forest district to district in the rate of conversion to plantation and the species to which conversion occurs where it does. Try really driving around the whole state and you may appreciate this.
As for the remainder of your unsubstantiated characterisations of the debate, to throw your own words back at you, “who are you trying to convince by this?” Obviously no-one worth the effort; I suspect you just get juvenile jollies out of wasting people’s time.
Dr Kevin Bonham
May 20, 2005 at 06:39
No, Gerry, you didn’t bother me at all, your arguments are just as ineffective as any of the other green ranters on this site and I have, of course, skipped over a lot of your unsubstantiated wibbling. As for “nit-picking”, if people choose to read my challenges to specific claims as also discrediting what the writer has said about other things, that is not my responsibility, but perhaps it might encourage the original writer to be more accurate in future. I hardly think that disputing a claim that forestry in Tasmania consists largely of conversion to E. nitens (note spelling) is nit-picking, but to paraphrase Francis Urquhart, for nit-picking to occur, there must be nits to pick. Looks like you are one of them!
Myopia is indeed a dangerous disease and assuming people are right just because they are fellow anti-forestry-as-it-is-currently-practised travellers is the most common form of it seen on this website – witness the first two responses to this thread. The so-called precautionary principle clearly being useless, the burden is on those seeking to justify a policy change to provide something more convincing than scientifically semi-literate say-so.
Those whinging about forestry are not generally engaging in “baiting”, but are simply complaining or trying to acheive their political goals. Far from wanting people to rise to the alleged bait, they would probably prefer it if those predictably hosing them down shut up so their misrepresentations would go unchallenged and become more widely circulated. Mander may be an exception and could well be trolling, but seems so hell-bent on giving me still more easy points to score that I’m happy to keep feeding him the odd 1080-laced carrot.
Yes I found a surprisingly diverse native invertebrate fauna in even young plantations. If you’re interested, Gerry, you can check the full findings in the paper on pp.237-247 of Forest Ecology and Management vol 158 (2002). In summary, the plantations surveyed had recovered the majority of the biodiversity (in selected groups) present in adjacent mature forest, but not all. It would be interesting to know whether canopy spraying to eradicate leaf beetles and other species that boom in plantations has any impact on ground invertebrates in the litter layer, but I certainly saw no evidence of wholesale invertebrate slaughter in the plantations I sampled.
Gaining membership of MENSA is not especially difficult, since one only needs to once record a result in the top two percent of the population on tests supposed to demonstrate intelligence, but which one can improve one’s results on through practice. Of course we only have Mander’s anonymous say-so that he was a member and the lack of perception in his comments would tend to suggest otherwise or else that there has been a major loss of brain function in the meantime.
Dr Kevin Bonham
May 22, 2005 at 08:24
Ironically, “Gerry Mander” accuses me of use of unsubstantiated epithets but that claim is in itself unsubstantiated. Indeed I have used some, but there is a great difference in this area between subjective opinions of a person’s debating style (for which all the previous debate on the site forms an implied body of evidence anyway) and unsubstantiated claims of fact about the subject matter being debated.
Gerry asks why I had nothing to say about South Sister. I simply don’t have a view either way on whether that coupe should be logged or not. I’ll be surprised if it is, but we’ll see.
Listing on the Threatened Species List does not mean a species necessarily is, or should be, protected from all possible impacts – just that there is a need to ensure that these do not, in general, get out of hand. That said, comments on some of these claims:
* Wedgetailed eagle: is a landscape predator that occurs statewide, so presence in coupe is almost meaningless because it occurs everywhere, with established mechanisms for protecting nest sites. Main threat is persecution not forestry.
* Spotted-tailed quoll: widespread with densest populations elsewhere and, while listed at threatened, at lowest level of risk and barely qualifying for that.
* Eastern barred bandicoot: not threatened in Tasmania. (National threatened species listing is somewhat aberrant because species is nearly extinct on mainland but is not at current risk overall. Foxes and dingos would become risks if they became established, forestry alone is not.)
* Moths: Tasmania has thousands of species of moth and hence it is likely that a trapping effort almost anywhere in suitable habitat well away from a National Park would reveal several spp not recorded in any National Park. Irrelevant unless conservation risk for these species is demonstrated, in which case they should be considered for listing as threatened.
* Eucalyptus brookeriana: listing under RFA (which is typically as community type not species) does not confer 100% protection, just goals for reservation. I don’t have much faith in these superficial vegetative community types as conservation tools anyway. Their relevance to actual species conservation is inadequately demonstrated.
* Velvet worms: while happy to debunk obviously false claims about them (of which there are many) I leave the running on the remainder to someone who knows far more about them than I do, Dr Bob Mesibov. I’d point out that while lines of parapatry involving velvet worms specifically are extremely unusual (indeed this is the only species-pair for which they are known), lines of invertebrate parapatry in general aren’t that uncommon.
* Lichens: are these listed threatened species or just “rare”?
etc.
On plantations, “Gerry Mander” should try actually obtaining and reading the paper I cited (I would be happy to post him a copy) before making silly accusations about not supplying proof. As it happened, I looked at both pine and eucalypt plantations from 5 years old upwards. Elsewhere I have seen some recovery in much younger plantations, but not much. One would not expect a 10-15 year old plantation to have recovered all the species diversity of adjacent mature forest, just as one would not expect 10-15 year old native regrowth forest to do so – what is significant is that plantations do have substantial native invertebrate habitat value rather than being completely worthless as was commonly claimed/feared. Time since spraying was not a variable I examined but evidently if there is a serious impact on ground invertebrates from spraying it can’t be that persistent.
(continues)
Dr Kevin Bonham
May 22, 2005 at 08:25
(continued) Because “Gerry Mander” is anonymous we are not in any position to verify his stories about MENSA membership but in any case, his account seems rather dodgy – I have never heard of MENSA unilaterally offering membership on the basis of an external test, although they may offer *the opportunity to sit their test* (which includes fees for assessment and membership) to those who perform well in such tests. (I have myself been offered such an opportunity but had better things to do with my money than flatter my ego by joining a society that locally appeared to be offering nothing more exciting by way of events than wine and cheese days – at the time I was a non-drinker.) In any case, no IQ level yet recorded appears to save people from wading into debate on subjects they know little about without their facts straight, so I am unsure of what Mander’s fossilised boasts are meant to accomplish.
Gerry, you are not taking any pressure of Brenda because you are not reducing the likelihood of me debunking her nonsense, nor are you establishing it as credible, and the notion that she could “kill the Bull” is laughable when her actual task seems to be to generate more of it. I will happily take on as many of you as are fools enough to play. As for “that will probably get me a torrent of abuse back”, and the “shooting the messenger” rubbish (didn’t I just debunk this silly cliche on another thread?) do please give the persection complex/martyrdom thing a break – quite simply (and this goes for Brenda as well) don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. I never claimed to be a nice guy but at least my “underbelly” isn’t this soft and squishy!
Brenda Rosser
November 29, 2005 at 05:45
Some interesting new information about the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation’s attempts to mislead the public:
“Using FAO’s definition of forest, monoculture plantations, highly degraded forests and even clear-cut areas ‘expected’ to regenerate, are all counted as forests.” (Report from the Rainforest Foundation 2005).
In FAO’s previous definition of ‘forest’ (the year 2000) “a 20% canopy cover was necessary for defining an area as forest. The FAO decreased it to 10 percent canopy cover, thereby largely increasing –on paper– the world’s forest area.”
FAO does not include ” logging as deforestation. According to the FAO, “by definition,
logging does not in itself result in deforestation, if the forest is allowed to regenerate.” While they are regenerating they are still considered to be forests and defined as
“temporarily unstocked areas.” This means that a country may have logged most of its forest, but –unless it converts the area to other ctivities– it will appear as having the same forest area as before.
FAO includes “even further types of plantations as forests –such as rubber tree plantations– which were not included in previous FAO assessments and thus artificially increasing the “forest” area.”
FAO includes “tree plantations as “forests” in the FAO definition. This is in fact the key issue for enabling the FAO to reach the conclusion that “net forest loss is slowing down”. Given that any plantation is considered to be a forest, this implies that if, for instance, 1 million hectares of eucalyptus plantations are established in one
country while at the same time 1 million hectares of forests are destroyed in the same country, the NET forest loss will be nil and the “forest” area will appear as not having
changed at all.”
“The NET loss in credibility of the FAO as the UN expert body of forests is now total.”
See this month’s World Rainforest Bulletin. November 2005. http://www.wrm.org.uy
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don davey
January 15, 2008 at 22:25
Brenda whilst i don,t attempt (nor could i begin to) approach your substantial knowledge and information regarding deforestation, i can tell from what i am able to understand that you indeed care and have the well being of this state (and for that matter the world which is more important} at the heart of the matter and whilst i don,t necessarily agree with all that you say as to where, and why, mankind is at the crossroads, i aplaud your efforts and hope that you continue despite the nitpicking stupidity of bonham who continually asks for evidence from others for their opinions without EVER responding in like when questioned.
It is evident (this and other posts) that his opinion is not held in strong regard on any topic and should you feel obligated to respond to him i feel certain other posters do not necessarily expect you to do so.
d.d.
Dr Kevin Bonham
January 16, 2008 at 01:51
Davey, you must be really really bored out of your skull to bother continuing a debate over one year old just because it was bumped by a spammer. But since you’re doing it to continue your lame attemtpts to bait me, I’ll point out that your claim “without EVER responding in like when questioned.” is yet another unsubstantiated false generalisation. Indeed, on this very thread I mentioned a paper about plantations of which I was the lead author; and several times here when people have asked me to back my claims about plantation invertebrates with evidence I have done so, using that paper as a source. False generalisations that can be disproved by single examples will *always* (no exceptions!) make you look like an idiot.
Oh, and a sentence containing 109 words of poorly punctuated gibberish is not a good look from someone who on another thread was pretending to know something about the English language. Let’s get this straight, Mr Davey:
What is “evident” to you is irrelevant.
What is held in strong regard by you is irrelevant.
What is held in strong regard by anyone you say nice things about is irrelevant.
You are irrelevant.
Have a nice day. 🙂
JakePorter
March 7, 2008 at 15:57
Hi,
At the risk of a flaming, and rightly so, as this is my first post and off topic! But I really need some advice.
My wife and I are planning on emigrating to Dubai, UAE as a new job opportunity awaits me there.
It’s obviously a big step and I’m exctited about moving but I’ve heard both good and bad things about the place.
Before I move my family, quit my job etc. I’d be grateful if anyone here has ever been there/or has any experience. Also what are living costs and the cost of [url=http://dubai.investment-property-made-simple.com/]Dubai property[/url]?
I’d really appreciate any feedback.
Regards
Jake
don davey
March 7, 2008 at 22:38
not sure where you are at present Jake however my ex doctor David Hewson should be able to give you some info as he spends half of his time between there and here,
He lives at Grindelwald, don’t have his number.
d.d.
Dr Kevin Bonham
March 10, 2008 at 23:12
Don, the post you are replying to is spam.