FORMER Gunns Ltd boss and convicted insider trader John Gay has been ordered to pay $500,000 under the Proceeds of Crime Act.
Mr Gay was convicted of insider trading in 2013 after selling more than $3 million in Gunns shares in 2009 and was fined $50,000.
The Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions (CDPP) subsequently commenced civil proceedings against Gay under proceeds-of-crimes laws, seeking a pecuniary penalty order in the amount of the “benefit” derived by Mr Gay from the insider trading.
Earlier this month, Justice Stephen Estcourt found Gay had derived a “benefit” from his offending by avoiding a loss and ordered the CDPP and Gay to engage in mediation.
Author Credits: [show_post_categories parent="no" parentcategory="writers" show = "category" hyperlink="yes"]
Garry Stannus
December 15, 2015 at 18:56
Well, this is some half justice, but he should have gone to jail. If there is a single businessman in Australia who is a company director, who is Chairman of the Board and who is the CEO, I cannot imagine that such a person would know that insider trading is not legal. Not even if you are sick. He dodged jail with an evasive plea, i.e., “He admitted to selling the shares while in possession of information he ought to have known would affect the share priceâ€.
Therein lay the suggestion that it was ignorance rather than intent.
I wouldn’t have accepted it. He should have done time, in my opinion, and I told him that outside the court, when they let him walk.
His company did much good in the community, but it also created much social dysfunction, as well as transforming large areas of our prized bush into burnt hillsides and plantations.
I suspect that this will be the last of it, he will forever be remembered in the annals of our state for the discord that accompanied him as he took Gunns to the heights and then to the depths. I don’t believe he will be judged kindly.
John Hawkins
December 15, 2015 at 21:29
Anywhere other than Tasmania a Mr Justice Porter would have sent Gay to Jail instead he was fined a paltry $50,000.
Despite the public outcry the AFP decided not to prosecute as Gay would have no case to answer – Really.
Rene Rivkin a well known Sydney stockbroker used insider knowledge to obtain an advantage of $2,664 dollars in a stock market trade on 50,000 Qantas shares on 24 April 2001.
Rivkin was convicted of insider trading and sentenced to 9 months periodic detention on weekends and was banned for life from trading. He took his own life in 2005.
Gay received a benefit now independently assessed of $500,000, which he will now repay.
His bankrupt company cost investors over a billion dollars.
Oh to live in your corrupt Tasmania.
What do you say Mr Lumber and Mr Halton?
John Hawkins
December 15, 2015 at 22:27
For good measure The Examiner gives the story a couple of paragraphs and allows no comments.
This is a big story in a small community but then Rouse owned and ran the Examiner before he went to jail for trying to buy a majority in the Tasmanian parliament.
It is good to see that standards are being maintained.
Frank again
December 16, 2015 at 00:58
RE: John Hawkins’ question @#2 ” What do you say Mr Lumber and Mr Halton?”
Why would we bother to get their opinion when in reality the whole show has run the island’s unique resources into and even below the man-made lake levels?
Forest mining / logging is nothing like responsible, comprehensive forest management.
Just watch the ABC 2 program:
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/risky-docos-maddie-parry-explores-a-brothel-an-abortion-clinic-native-logging-20151124-gl5yjj.html
Here we go again:
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/maddie-parry/DO1250S001S00
jack lumber
December 16, 2015 at 10:48
ref # 2 and the oft-quoted aphorism Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done .
Has this test has been passed? every individual will feel different but I say it has
Like #1 lets us remember what has happened both the achievements and lessons learnt .
I would like to add a comment regarding the use of the term corruption and the frequency of use in TT posts . I feel it is being used in a manner that it runs the risk of becoming a “Cry Wolf ” and being dismissed. so we need to be wise in its use . Corruption must be removed root and branch and we must remain vigilant , but not getting an outcome you desired is not a flag for ” corruption “.
It neither supports nor respects a number of processes and in this case in the story above the judicial system . Case in point the SLAP of the G20 was wrong , but it was the law that came through . Was that “corruption ” , no it was due process , one that is often called an “ass” but not corrupt .(not in Australia )
Can there be more discretion in its use in 2016
My apologies for trying to sound reasoned and measured .
jack lumber
December 16, 2015 at 11:51
re 4 whats wrong frank …. maddie didn’t I think change her mind , but did I think she saw that there are other valid views and its a bit complicated . Her statement re wanting to belong to a group and then not wanting to challenge “their values ” ( my paraphrasing ) was quite telling ; for us all .
Pete Godfrey
December 16, 2015 at 11:54
Jack Lumber you say that justice must be seen to be done. The problem I have is that justice is different depending on what level of the socio economic ladder the person is on.
I will trust the justice system when no matter what rung of the ladder is on the justice level remains on an even keel.
It has often been seen that corporate criminals are treated with a good lashing of a feather while criminals who are poor are thrashed to an inch of their lives.
Strange you mention underwater logging, It still strikes me as odd that the logs were not removed before the drowning of the lakes happened. Now we have heritage values being disturbed and aquatic habitat destroyed to make a few minor species users turn the corners of their mouths up. Hope the silly season is not too silly for you.
Leonard Colquhoun
December 16, 2015 at 15:29
Fully support Comment 5’s caution about “Cry Wolf!” and even more so the various “Cry Wolf!” industries which are springing up in this Age of (Conspicuous) Whingeing.
As for the $500,000 fine, it can share the punchline which often finishes a lawyer joke – a good start.
jack lumber
December 17, 2015 at 16:05
re 7 Pete even stranger was you segue to underwater logging as I checked and I did not mention it but hey I can roll with that
hah hah didn’t take long to try an have a shot .and what a misfire it is . I pleased to say I understand that there has been considerable effort and inspections as part of planning and ongoing monitoring of operations and practices . I think perhaps some research on your behalf might be useful .
In fact i’d hazard a guess this is the definitive example of DK syndrome ( ref previous posts on TT ) for 2015 and pleased you saved it for the end of the year . .
Was it strange the trees where not removed before hand , probably but the that was how it was done in those days . I don’t know I wasn’t around
Jack
Leonard Colquhoun
December 17, 2015 at 17:48
Guessing about Comment 9’s “Was it strange the trees where not removed before hand , probably but the that was how it was done in those days” – would it have been in “those days” all timber work was done with hand tools, and the time, energy and cost of removing the trees beforehand was too much?
The amount of hard yakka previous generations had to use is often forgotten.
Karl Stevens
December 17, 2015 at 21:56
jack lumber. Retrospectively looking at the year almost past, do you think Steve Whiteley is doing a better job than Bob Gordon did as CEO of Forestry Tasmania?
I’m not sure if Whiteley is a forester like Bob Gordon so I’m interested in your thoughts?
Pete Godfrey
December 17, 2015 at 21:56
#9 Gee Jack, I must have been imbibing in the home made wine my friend left behind a few weeks back, I was sure in one of your rants you mentioned underwater logging. You must be very young eh, Lake Pieman was finished in 1987, not that long ago.
Leonard #10 as Lake Pieman which is the place I was referring to was only finished in 1987 it is not so long ago,in fact well into the halycon days of woodchipping in Tasmania. So “those days” the work was not all done by hand tools.
John Hawkins
December 18, 2015 at 10:43
Lumber
Gay is to repay half a million dollars under the PROCEEDS OF CRIME ACT.
Gay pleaded guilty to the crime of INSIDER TRADING.
Gay was found GUILTY of a very profitable CRIME.
Gay was fined $50,000 for obtaining by his own admission a benefit that later turned out to be ten times the amount of the fine.
It could therefore be suggested that this was a legal decision enacted at maaaaates rates.
Justice by Porter was not done, it was not seen to be done and it reflects badly on those involved.
The Examiner and its staff know this.
By virtually canning this vey important local story our community has been very poorly served.
Pipers and Tunes spring to mind.
Jack lumber
December 18, 2015 at 17:17
Re 12 . Checked ” rants ” via search engine …. Got mainly posts by you , so can see why confusion by you .
Re timing , no checked my TARDIS logs , no wasn’t there ,
So frankly what’s your point ? ( excuse my contempt )
Re 11 Not for any reason other than , public figures are fair game viz a minister , I’ll decline your invitation . I will say this , the culture of FT has improved under the current leadership and without the shackles of past decisions , it can be a successful organisation . Of course most posterS on TT view FT via the lense of corruption ( Karl I just made a huge and mostly unsupported generalisation and I would appreciate your thoughts on same as you are the master of the generalisation)
Re 13 is your keyboard stuck ‘ A’…. I find sometimes because It’s wireless the batteries need changing . Just a suggestion
Seriously how did you come to s such an astonishing determination ? Did you contact ASIC or maybe John Lawrence ?
Re canning by local press …my god does anyone actually read the examiner other than a peek on line . I thought the biggest ” sale point of the examiner ” was the freebies they used to give away at the airport . No one cares about the examiner John . Portals such as TT and other internet sites make sure people know . Saying the examiner is crap is like asking is the pope a catholic ?
Pete Godfrey
December 18, 2015 at 21:52
Jack back in post 9 you said “Was it strange the trees where not removed before hand , probably but the that was how it was done in those days . I don’t know I wasn’t around”
I read that as saying that you are too young to know as you weren’t born then. Before your time to use another term. Not being around often means that.
Not sure about the contempt, your post can be read many ways as many others posts can.
Semantics may be a useful study but frankly I don’t have time, I read what I read and interpret it from experience.
john hayward
December 19, 2015 at 00:39
Jack Lumber, #5. The Gunns 20 SLAPP suit was heard in Victoria on evidence that crumbled in your fingers.
It was probably prosecuted in Vic to bankrupt the respondents with the added costs, with the applicants assuming the Vic judiciary was much like their Tas counterparts.
The costs of Gunns’ learning experience was picked up by their shareholders.
Sometimes corruption is too obvious to ignore.
John Hayward
Jack lumber
December 19, 2015 at 09:39
Re 15 . Pete it was not my intent to confuse re ” being there ”
I wasn’t there nor had knowledge of the dam building then or now other than what is available on public domain .
Now semantics resolved ….. Your claims ? Evidence ? It can be of any type , source be happy if you quoted yourself or the ” in situ” TT poster , young William of Rosebery . Whatever…… …..or have more statements been made in which they are based on a predetermined , predisposition to assume the worst. . for the record , the evidence from rviewimg your posts would suggest so. QED.
Karl Stevens
December 19, 2015 at 14:44
Pete Godfrey 5. I was looking at a recent photo of jack lumber and I recon he’s past retirement age.
I’m not surprised he’s only getting voluntary work as logging troll.
Having all the International Roast coffee you can drink has to be the upside I guess.
Jack lumber
December 19, 2015 at 21:07
Re 18 Karl I repeat the sentiment this turn in discussions is a waste of time as its off track and incorrect but perhaps I should now refer to you a ” Don Quixote ” before leaving this thread ; It should be made clear that it appears that none of the claims made by Mr Godfrey have been substantiated .
I prefer PABLO coffee for the record and again last word will be yours .
Yours in anticipation
Karl Stevens
December 20, 2015 at 10:40
Lumber jack. It’s history now but one of your execs ran the Pulp Mill Taskforce promoting John Gay’s faded pipedream.
… your methods of promoting the Institute are the same as ‘clear felling’?
Steve
January 1, 2016 at 22:30
#18 & 20; Sorry to be a wet blanket Karl but you appear to be mounting a personal attack on Jack lumber, rather than the content of his posts.
Your obvious implication is that you are aware of his true identity, but surely it’s the height of discourtesy to exploit your possible awareness and it really doesn’t add anything to the discussion.
Mind you, I’d like someone to translate #17. Reads more like Jack Joyce!
Mick Kenny
January 2, 2016 at 14:42
Had Mr Gay robbed a bank or the local golf club booze supply…..or fiddled his expense claims as a trade unionist even…
William Boeder
January 2, 2016 at 17:32
On 2 prior occasions I visited the south of the Lake Pieman site where there were old cables laying about and the wherewithal debris to suggest that the salvage of underwater logs had previously been carried out in this precise location.
As to when, it can only be a guess, say within a period before 2004.
At the time I thought that this was a cleverly contrived ruse to obtain valuable logs on the quiet.
(No royalties, no publicity, just free gains at this location, this being some 5-6 track kilometres from the road leading to the Pieman reservoir waters between Zeehan and Rosebery.
For the record, Pete Godfrey is best known for his accurate forthright statements as being the true facts.
…
Fact:
The claims and statements of John Hawkins published on Tasmanian Times are of that same calibre and or integrity as those submitted by Pete Godfrey.
….
Then too your comments are an action of intended misinforming, thereby misleading, aimed at depriving the attendees to this forum from the Full-Monty of truth to the ruinous depletion of our Former abundant Old Growth Forests, as became the infamy of John Gay and his overlording associates and executive honchoes.
As to the sum of $500,000-00 this in itself may not have covered the entire of the illegally gained profits received by this criminally intent John Gay criminal.
…
A question on the bona-fide delivery of Justice, but on a scale far higher than Tasmania, say by each of the judges sitting on the full bench of the High Court of Australia, that either of such up-righteous judges will ever find a decision that is demonstrably fair and just, that will becomesa ruling ‘against’ the Commonwealth Bank of Australia?
Answer: on the evidences presented in one particular recorded case against this Bank, (that would have set a formidable precedent if this Bank were ever again called upon to answer for their alleged misdemeanours and or illegal conducts, as were lodged against this particular Bank) this particular case was of course sub-judicially decided in favour of the Bank.
No amount of ceremonial depiction nor finely costumed well regarded quantum of wig wearing judges sitting side by side upon the High Court Judgment bench, will ever constitute that JUSTICE WILL HAVE, OR HAS BEEN, HONOURABLY SERVED.
Karl Stevens
January 2, 2016 at 23:07
Steve 21. I agree about the irony of an essentially anonymous identity such as ‘Steve’ defending another anonymous identity such as ‘Jack’ in online forums.
So easy for anons but not a level playing field for real identities.
However, I’ve got a lot to thank the so-called ‘jack L’ for. I recon he inadvertently revealed a systematic campaign against Tasmanian conservationists that was orchestrated over a long period of time from a central point.
Due to your alleged interest I will leave you with a delicious morsel.
“How did eucalyptus forests survive for 50 million years with no human intervention whatsoever, yet today they must be managed by university-educated foresters?”
“What specific event in biological history made human foresters indispensable to forests when previously they were not”?
William Boeder
January 3, 2016 at 11:56
My apology in my not being specific in naming the person I was providing my reply comment thereto.
This was in fact intended for the well known yet camouflaged sobriquet of jack lumber.
Karl you have indeed raised a rather relevant topic in your closing question featured in the above comment.
Were Ken Jeffries to have not been hurried off from the executive ranks of Forestry Tasmania there is no doubt that this particular artful dodger to reality could answer your question in an exceedingly fictitious drivel of utter nonsense.
jack are you in anyway related to the former covert manipulator of fact with his well recognized capacity for creating hallucinatory dreaming’s?
Steve
January 3, 2016 at 13:10
#24; You misunderstand me Karl. I’m defending the integrity of this forum and basic manners, rather than defending Jack Lumber who appears quite capable of defending his viewpoint.
Your concern with regard to the “level playing field” would largely disappear if people focused on the content of posts, rather than the identity of the poster.
The answer to your delicious morsel query appears to be quite obvious. For 50 million years the trees looked after themselves, with varying degrees of success. The current forests are where they were successful. We are now changing everything by clearing land, harvesting timber, damming rivers etc, etc. Professional foresters are by no mean indispensable to forests, nature will sort it out but nature’s solution might be a desert!
Your argument is akin to questioning why we need doctors as the human race evolved quite successfully without them.
jack lumber
January 3, 2016 at 13:38
re 24 Hi Karl Happy new year .
I have to be careful as I will be accused ( stand by ) of protesting to much BUT …. there has been no campaign , systemic or otherwise and no I am not who you think you have wrongfully deduced . This is getting boring .
There is some serial and incorrect usage of a number of terms include ” corruption ” but I was hoping 2016 would harbour better discussions rather than what had become the “hamsters wheel “.
I am a singular individual answering to no one or any group . The views are my own just like the typos and sometimes bad prose (apologies to all will try to do better for 2016 )
Now Karl if you want to keep banging on ,go for it . I will just keep asking people to clarify some of the statements made
Your last two question are rhetorical , surely ?I look forward to your explanation
re 23 William ….. I take that as a “No” then 🙂
Karl Stevens
January 3, 2016 at 22:06
jack lumber. So who did you think I thought you were?
Karl Stevens
January 3, 2016 at 22:21
Steve Anonymous 25. Interesting that you see foresters as the doctors of sick forests? I wonder if jack lumber Anonymous would concur?
Steve
January 3, 2016 at 23:37
#29 “Karl Stevens” Anonymous person with two names. Get over it mate. I don’t know who you are. I don’t know where you live. Score equal!
My doctors metaphor was meant to be food for thought. Ultimately the human race could do without professionals of any sort. Living in a cave with a maximum life span of twenty five years would probably be ideal for the long term future of our planet. We have however evolved to the point where we are tinkering with things and I for one, reckon we need all the professional help we can get.
My possible exception to this endorsement would be professional politicians
Jack lumber
January 4, 2016 at 00:43
Re 28
As I was walking down a stair I met a man who wasn’t theie
He wasn’t there again today
I wish that man would go away
By Anon . A traditional childhood rhyme .
I thought you thought that you thought it was ..”..coding error 404.
Jokes over and as now crazy as some of the logic and statements made
I hope more constructive discussions can happen in 2016 or TT will become a parody
And again the last word will be yours Karl
Karl Stevens
January 4, 2016 at 10:55
Steve Anonymous 30. Changing the earth’s climate is ‘tinkering with things’?
Politicians bad, foresters good? Will you be starting a political party or do you already have one?
(comment challenged and deleted)
Karl Stevens
January 4, 2016 at 14:01
Interesting development.
Comment 46 here:
http://www.oldtt.pixelkey.biz/index.php/article/manufacturing-fears-highlight-need-for-new-economic-direction
An anonymous commenter is allowed to tell us which country his relatives live in but another commenter who is posting under his real name is not allowed to mention it.
Level playing field please.
Steve
January 4, 2016 at 14:02
#32; Not much point prolonging this conversation Karl. I’ve simply been trying to promote the merits of basic courtesy and intelligent discussion.
#31; I always thought it was “Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there”? Pedantry aside, your little poem gave me a chuckle. Very apt.
Steve
January 6, 2016 at 00:14
#31; Totally off topic, but interesting anyway.
Suffering from the affliction that kills cats, I googled the man upon the stair.
Seemingly it’s not “anon” as I was always led to believe. Composed by one William Hughes Mearns in 1899. He appears to have been happy not to claim authorship until 1939 when the Glen Miller Band started to make money from a hit song based on the rhyme.
As far as I can see, your quote comes from the song, whilst mine comes from the original poem. Interestingly, there’s an additional verse that I had never heard;
“When I came home last night at three,
the man was there waiting for me,
but when I looked around the hall,
he wasn’t there at all”
It probably wasn’t intended by the original author but there’s a certain Tasmanian echo there…
William Boeder
January 6, 2016 at 18:01
Yes Karl you I and many other persons are appropriately dismayed that anything to do with the Law and Justice system in this State even after the John Gay recommended plea of guilty,(this done so as to restrain any express requests for deeper and more revealing disclosures) there ever seems to be a conga line of Tasmania’s Judiciary seen hovering close by this greedster offering a wink and a nod.
Then of interest is that another conga line, only in this conga line are the numerous fierce-fee-charging legal bulldogs in this State that could almost form a human shield around this convicted criminal, (the cause of so much debt and dishonour right across the State) yet he is still accorded this special privilege.
So then next we see that John the great pretender wanted to get back his freedom to enable himself to resume his role of director to his Somerset timber shakedown operation, demanding to be re-appointed to his directorship of running that Somerset timber operation, when again our State judiciary immediately stepped in to remove any legal obstacle that might not suit this rather deceptively cloaked John Gay.
No, nobody in this State’s judicature could see a problem with John boy regaining so easily that directorship of which had been removed by ‘indisputable written law’ yet which could so easily be restored under this State’s law of ‘inexplicable reason.’
So in light of this matter and related others which this matter above has since provided the citizens of this State with another strong hint as to the fidelity of the Tasmanian Justice System.
I do believe that Tasmania’s often flouted Justice System should be given a new title,
how about the Swiss Cheese Justice system?
As indeed so many Tasmanian people would be aware that this particular type or brand of cheese is riven throughout with inlets and outlets, that seems to have this cheese consist of that which could also be regarded as escape-holes and or bolt-holes as a special feature of itself, so therefore this new appellation appears appropriate.
I am aware of a recent court matter that saw the complainant, (a member of the lesser class) soon become regarded by the presiding scion of integrity, as the defendant, simply by way of a rather contrary delivered judicial decision.
So do beware all persons not entwined within the higher echelons of the privileged, should any of the sub-class of ‘Tasmanians ordinary’ seek a true and just decision delivered, do beware and have a sound re-think of the perils and foils lurking within this Swiss Cheese Justice System.
John Hawkins
January 6, 2016 at 18:50
Lumber in the interests of accuracy.
The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations the bible on this subject:
“Hughes Mearns 1875 -1965 American writer
As I was walking up the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there.
He wasn’t there again today.
I wish, I wish he’d stay away.
Lines written for the Psycho-ed, an amateur play, in Philadelphia,1910(set to music in 1939 as ‘The Little Man Who Wasn’t There’)”
Steve
January 7, 2016 at 00:20
#37; John, I’m not sure about the “bible”in this instance.
It’s all very nebulous as it seems the author wasn’t interested until someone else started to make money out of his creation, which was some forty years after he penned the original quatrain.
My feeling is that if the “Yesterday upon the stair” version that myself, and so many others, knew as the product of that versatile author, “anon”, has no providence, why do we all know it?
The words of the song are obviously on the record as it was a hit.
Any Googling of “Antigonish” brings up the “..upon the stair” version. Presumably, Mr Mearns would have had to go into some detail when establishing his claim for royalties. It’d be interesting to see the details.
Karl Stevens
January 7, 2016 at 11:45
William Boeder 36. Of course the so-called ‘justice system’ here is flawed, why would ex-convicts have it any other way?
At least we are not ‘Poms’ who exported 75,000 of their legally-challenged countrymen and women to Tasmania. When they migrate here themselves they start whinging about how corrupt it is.
What did they expect, a model of ethics and probity?
Back to the logging industry.
I’ve found most of the ‘pro-logging’ comments here are actually only a few people using multiple nick names. That breaches the TT code but it’s hard to prove.
I’ve discovered a probably full time logging troll based in Melbourne who appears to actually have multiple personalities. I suspect he also impersonates other members of his elite ‘Institute of Saw Chain Sharpeners of Australia’.
This group is also in the wrong chamber of FSC Australia.
This group (The Institute) is critical to the continuation of state-run native timber logging. They are who Jim Bacon was talking about on his deathbed. They are TasInc and VicInc combined.
Although extremely powerful and arrogant they can and will be bought to justice because the pseudo science they use is deeply flawed. It’s only science stolen by commerce and it can only be used commercially.
EG. ‘We have to light a bushfire here because there was no lightning strike and we exterminated all of the indigenous population’.
They call that ‘science’. They are a joke.
Wiliam Boeder
January 7, 2016 at 14:17
Yes Karl, same as the story goes that the residents of a new and population increasing township had to shoot one of its residents to better illustrate the need to create a local cemetery.
This is the same logic that is set in place in this State, which is to continually fabricate the need for an Old Growth Forest destroying logging program.
The devastating role played out by the former Chairman and CEO of John Gay’s Gunns Ltd, was to create something that was reliant upon the ongoing destruction and devastation of Tasmania’s abundant public forested wilderness’s.
This was just the thing to set this State government against the people of Tasmania and has become a long term resounding success in that the Tasmanian citizens continue to despise the State government’s complete lack of honesty and integrity.
High time that this State government should have been placed under administration due to the absence from within it of any bona-fide intellectual ministerial governance capacities and any propensity to fair transparent honest dealings.
Karl Stevens
January 8, 2016 at 19:07
Wiliam Boeder. I can highly recommend the paper ‘A Mathematical Model of Democratic Elections’ by Nagel.
http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/A-Mathematical-Model-of-Democratic-Elections.pdf
They ran computer simulations of elections and found that the ‘majority’ of ‘ordinary’ people consistently elected mediocre leaders who at best only had slightly better than average leadership qualities.
Interestingly, all humans on the ‘bell curve’ are only able to comprehend people who are ‘dumber’ than they are. They have no real understanding of anybody to the right of them on the bell curve who are probably ‘smarter’ than the are.
Applied to Tasmania, we see ‘leaders’ who are trashing the climate just to provide woodchips for mostly packaging in Asia, and who are blissfully unaware they are critically injuring their own economy.
The cost of the current drought to the Tasmanian economy far exceeds the pathetic profits they make from woodchip exports and yet they are too intellectually compromised to realise it.
I will go out on a limb here and declare I think Will Hodgman has a below average IQ and so does most of his team. I would say Peter Gutwein has an average IQ but still fails to connect cause and effect in any meaningful way.
It’s painful for the more ‘gifted’ among us to stand back and watch Tasmanians economically flagellate themselves with their own stupidity but what can you do?
They have convinced themselves that paying imbeciles to irreversibly cripple the Earths climate somehow makes economic sense.
William Boeder
January 8, 2016 at 21:42
Thank you Karl, this is the most excellent reference material and should provide a window of truth into the mediocrity of this State’s present State government ministerial incumbents.
Thank you for taking the time to dwell deeper into this matter.
Meanwhile I am yet to receive a response to my earlier midst of December letter registered and sent to Malcolm Turnbull, be that as it may, my next letter will go direct to the ABC and may prove to be the most fascinating material to create a documentary of the manifest failures in Tasmania. EG: these listed below.
State government Liberal party both front and back offices.
Many of the State’s government enterprises.
The system of law and justice as now issues from within the Department of Justice today and has done issued from times long past.
I note here 2 State government Authorities that abuse the statutes to which they are obliged to consider in each and all of their activities, whereby they actively engage in Elderly Abuse, both the Guardianship and Administration Board, then this State’s Public Trustee.
Further, that I hold proof documents that will attest to and or confirm the veracity of my claims in this comment.
Were one to comb over the past times of government rule in Tasmania, this must also include the most severe draconian principles of law that I refer to here as “the era of antiquity” are still in part, applicable to the essence of Tasmanian law as is thrust upon the people resident here in Tasmania to this very day.
I also query the validity of Professional Privilege by legal hacks, the DPP and how this appointed office adheres to its supposed discretionary powers, then to the flagrant resort by this State’s presiding government’s claims of “Commercial in Confidence.”
These powers ought not to exist in today’s sphere’s of government, (as well as those referred to in the above) as they are conveniently chosen to act as “cloaking mechanisms” to protect information prejudicial to each of these I have referred to, that will baffle the true and honest applications of Justice, State Law, then in the governance of this very State of Tasmania.
Simon Warriner
January 9, 2016 at 13:37
Karl, re your 41.
I take issue with your claim that “all humans on the ‘bell curve’ are only able to comprehend people who are ‘dumber’ than they are. They have no real understanding of anybody to the right of them on the bell curve who are probably ‘smarter’ than the(y)are”. I am entirely sympathetic with the frustration that gives rise to it, but calling people stupid will never bring them to your point of view, especially when they have been very deliberately led to hold a particular perspective.
It has been my fortune and privilege over my working life to observe a great many leadership styles, and to see the results of those different approaches, often in times of very considerable stress for the organisations so led.
The distillation of that experience is that you are dead wrong, and that is reinforced when I talk to everyday people. If you engage them in conversation that draws out the reasons for their initial responses instead of just writing them off as morons you find them quite able to discern between bullshit and the truth, and capable of making thoughful and relevant insights if their installed perspectives are reasonably challenged by other perspectives offered. The conclusion I have drawn is that the media machine is brought and paid for by those intent on exercising domination because it has been proven over time to be capable of dominating the thought processes of the masses.
What is getting in the road of sensible decision making by the broad electorate is a complete lack of an audible, coherent, consistent and readily accessible voice promoting an alternative and pointing out the glaring and manifest flaws in our current, party centric method of using the democratic model of government. The internet has been incrementally providing that voice, but from an extremely low base, and the presence of that voice in its myriad of forms is driving the visible urge from governments globally to place limits upon it, as it is also driving the efforts to put in place ever increasing abilities to observe and track our communications and attitudes.
Steve
January 9, 2016 at 21:23
#43; I’m inclined to agree with you. The proposition in question; ““all humans on the ‘bell curve’ are only able to comprehend people who are ‘dumber’”, is not an outcome of the link that Karl provided; rather it is an assumption upon which the paper is founded and to my mind is inadequately referenced. On this point the author states “This rule can be induced from trivial experiences and experimental data and deduced from fauceir theory”. That may be fine in the context of the paper in question, but to take this and apply it as an empirical law is to draw a very long bow indeed!
In general, I’m of the opinion that people are not as stupid as many might think them to be and when a subject, such as forestry, remains a bone of contention for many years, it’s because there are two legitimate sides to the argument and any person who, because of his allegiance to one camp, dismisses the credibility of the other camp’s argument, does so at his peril.
There will be no victory in the forestry wars. Intelligent compromise is what should be strived for. Unfortunately, as you point out, the media machine has a lot of power and they would much prefer conflict over compromise.
Karl Stevens
January 10, 2016 at 00:24
Simon Warriner. Interesting comments. The paper did come under heavy criticism but why wouldn’t it?
I’m always looking for a way out of the human condition and this is another step in that direction.
It means I don’t have to waste energy expecting great results from elections when it has been (scientifically) predicted that the average will just keep electing the average.
I won’t be disappointed because I have downgraded my expectations and brought them in line with reality.
I also won’t waste time trying to get independents elected because I realise that when sheep vote, a sheep always wins. Therefore I have more time for the people that matter in life.
The paper also takes the wind out of the sails of election pundits who I think are some of the biggest ‘know it alls’ around.
You mentioned ‘bring them to your point of view’ but isn’t that the problem and the liberation?
I don’t have to bring anyone to my point of view because I’m not looking for numbers. That was the point of the paper – more numbers equals more mediocrity.
Look at the brilliant reality we can have? While the sheep are building gold plated sports clubs, racing tracks and casinos, the intellectuals among us have built a world where sheep are irrelevant.
Garry Stannus
January 10, 2016 at 11:17
Karl (#41): I did read the paper that you provided a link to and initially decided not to comment on it. Steve and Simon subsequently did (which has prompted me to have ‘my two bob’s worth’): Steve’s pointing to an assumption on which the paper was founded (#44, para 1) was apt. I had been surprised in my reading of that paper just how many assumptions had been made, without discussion, without relevant referencing etc. For example, I found no description/assessment of successful leadership as a concept. I thought that there should have been. In fact, one statement contained in the abstract blew me away … I don’t agree with it: “Democratic election is the preferred method for determining political administrators nowadays. The intention is to find the best possible leader in order to improve the group’s competitiveness and success.â€
As a ‘side issue’, Karl, I wondered whether you would extend this view of political leadership to the corporate world, i.e. from the shareholders to the then board room of John Gay, for example.
Leonard Colquhoun
January 10, 2016 at 15:42
Couple of responses to Comment 45:
~ “looking for a way out of the human condition”: there isn’t one, really (well, there is one, but it is definitively terminal), as William Golding’s character Simon in Lord of the Flies suggested with his “maybe, the Beast is us”;
~ “have more time for the people that matter in life” (apparently, here, intellectuals – FFS!!!!!): the bedrock of every tyranny, despotism, dictatorship, theocracy and similarly murderous regime since the Stone Age.
(Or do we have here a “failure to communicate” in two more cases of the absent satire / sarcasm emoticon?)
Karl Stevens
January 10, 2016 at 19:13
Leonard Colquhoun. Yes, maybe ‘the Beast is us’ or more specifically ‘our minds’.
“Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.”
For ‘woman’ here substitute ‘systems of government’ and it all makes sense.
Before you tune out of their little sandpit for ever, have a look at the ‘hereditary, democratic monarchy with partial non-proportional representation’ and piss yourself laughing. No wonder only those on the left of the bell curve think it’s an ideal system?