School of Economics and Finance Discussion Paper 2010-01
Abstract
This paper outlines the process for evaluating the economic effects of Gunns proposed pulp mill in northern Tasmania. Removal of the project from the Resource planning and Development Commission had two important effects. First, assumptions underlying the proponent’s impact statement could not be tested in public hearings. Second, important parts of the RPDC economic assessment criteria were never addressed. In the end, the review process was structured so that only one outcome, favourable to the proponents, was ever possible.
Introduction
Speaking in support of the Pulp Mill Permit on 30 August 2007, Legislative Councillor Mr Jim Wilkinson concluded that ‘I am satisfied that the pulp mill proposal has been assessed against the guidelines established by the RPDC and against the conditions that were imposed by various regulators according to the law’. Some seven weeks earlier the economic consulting firm ITS Global had completed its review of the social and economic benefits of the mill. It is clear from the Hansard record of the debate that many Councillors relied on the conclusions of this review in supporting the granting of a permit for the mill, but it is a matter of speculation as to whether Councillors other than Mr Wilkinson believed that the RPDC guidelines had been met. The review by ITS Global, however, leaves no doubt as to its position – it noted that since Gunns had withdrawn from the RPDC assessment process, the guidelines for the draft IIS were ‘defunct’[1]. For the Lennon government it was self-evident that the large investment associated with the mill would benefit Tasmanians. In 2004, well before any formal assessment process had begun, Economic Development Minister Lara Giddings said that,
‘There are clear benefits for Tasmania in developing a pulp mill. The benefits can be measured in terms of jobs and economic growth through the downstream processing of our timber resource and we are determined to do all we can to see a modern pulp mill facility using world’s best practice in Tasmania.’[2]
The government was true to its word. Significant funds from Commonwealth and State governments were spent to facilitate development of the mill proposal and to persuade Tasmanians of its merits. The Tasmanian government lobbied for continuation of tax concessions under managed investment schemes so as to ensure the financial viability of the mill and, after the mill permit was legislated by the Tasmanian parliament, for Commonwealth infrastructure funding for transportation of pulpwood around the state.
The effect of withdrawing the mill from the RPDC assessment process was that these and other expenditures or tax concessions, together with possible externality costs, were never quantified by either the proponents or reviewers of the IIS. This made it inevitable that the assessment process would find ‘clear economic and social benefits’ from building the mill.
The focus of this paper is on the adequacy of the economic assessment of the pulp mill project – both through the RPDC process and the subsequent ITS Global review commissioned by the Department of Premier and Cabinet. The story begins with an outline of the RPDC assessment criteria, followed by a section illustrating the pro-mill environment of political spin in which the assessment took place. I then analyse the assessment process in two stages. The first stage comprises three sections which examine the economic modelling strategy underpinning Gunns’ IIS, the welfare measures derived from it, and whether the IIS met the RPDC guidelines. The second stage deals with events after submission of the IIS – the peer review reports of the IIS, the ITS Global review, and the modelling conducted by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research.
It is just possible that, had a more critical assessment been completed, a broad consensus might have been reached in which a formal benefit-cost analysis showed the mill to be of net benefit to the residents of Tasmania. This is not what happened. The last section of the chapter concludes that, at the time Mr Wilkinson spoke, the economic assessment of the pulp mill was incomplete in a number of important respects – consideration of subsidies for the mill had been sidelined; important modelling assumptions had not been scrutinised; the possible cost of environmental externalities had been excluded; and benefits accruing to Tasmanian households had been misrepresented.
HERE: Download Paper with footnotes: Discussion_paper_2010-01.pdf
Dave Groves
February 10, 2010 at 10:27
This sorry excuse of a proposal, cannot be justified as viable, in real terms by anyone as yet.
Let’s check the nuts and bolts.
Starting with the basics.
4 tonnes of native forest woodchips, bought for a song from the people of Tasmania, with no environmental consideration, will return about $600 gross to the woodchipper.
We are looking at minimal inputs, and minimal outgoings.
Add some subsidies, free infrastructure, and some generous concessions, and you see a pretty sweet deal has been stitched up.
Lets move to pulp.
4 tonnes of woodchips, makes one tonne of pulp, for around $600.
BUT, you have to spend a truck load of dinero to make that happen. $2.5 billion or more in capital outlay, which will most likely be written off in 30 years or so…the chemical factory will just be a rotting carcass..plus inputs galore, running costs etc etc.
So that’s the start of it.
Now look at the world market….can they seriously expect to lock this inflexible paradigm in for the next 30 years or so?
With technology advancing at rates that boggle the mind, newspapers are history….even the old copper two pair has it’s day marked…
The days of chopping down forests…native, plantation or otherwise, for pulp, are drawing to a close.
Now if this project was indeed the winner that the vested interests proclaim, then why after five years, has no one on planet earth picked it up?
Companies make cigarettes like they are going out of style, despite huge lawsuits against them, and the evolving notion that they are not the best thing to ingest, but there is a long line of people willing to throw money to make more of the little nails.
So does that tell you something about this pulp mill proposal?
Now lets look and the planning of this ad hock shemozzle.
Remember how Pipers River was the water supply to quench the thirst of the behemoth?
That’s how the random nature of this proposal started.
A few weeks later it was gazetted as under water restrictions….now there’s some foresight!
That was the beginning, so see all the aimless wanderings since, of this rinky dink proposal.
Far too many to list here, but I’m sure you can see for yourselves.
Gunns will never admit defeat, because their entire pickled paradigm hinges on assembling this rusty relic, lest their wheels fall off.
Governments LIB and LAB will never admit defeat, for it has been the biggest piss up the wall of taxpayers money in the history of our nation.
Eventually somethings gotta give.
What a show…..
Mike Bolan
February 10, 2010 at 16:32
Right on Grovesy.
Tree plantations for pulp mill feedstock represent one optional use of our scarce resources of water and land.
MIS schemes (TimberCorp, Great Southern) went broke after charging prices between $7,000 and $9,000 per hectare to grow pulp wood trees (e.g. E. Nitens).
Using a sale price of $25 tonne for plantation pulp wood (unlikely outcome as Gunns has a wood supply agreement for native forest timber @ $15 tonne delivered) and a yield of 150 tonnes over 15 years (10 tonnes/ha/yr production) that results in $25 x 150 tonnes ($3,750 total) = $350/yr.
This means that hectare of land yields $350 each year as income – a shockingly low value for each hectare which will be locked into that low return ‘in perpetuity’ by Tasmanias forestry laws.
Of course, we need to deduct the costs from that income. Planting is reported to cost around $1,750 one time cost, so that comes off the total income ($3,750 – $1,750) giving $2,000 for each hectare over the 15 years, or $134 per year.
To achieve that $134 the hectare will require about 2 million litres of water from the catchment. With water priced at a conservative $10 per kilolitre, that’s $2,000 worth of water drawn from the catchment to produce the $134 of income from the trees.
The effect is of a ‘return’ of $134 per hectare at a cost of $2,000 of water each year.
This level of return is beyond a joke…blackberries, chickens, veggies, anything would do better than that. But once a plantation, always a plantation in perpetuity, which limits Tasmania’s ability to develop and use its land more productively than trees.
Given the number of hectares of pulp wood feedstock and the rapidly drying nature of many of our catchments, unchecked plantation establishment is a pathway to total destruction of our food production industries, possibly to rural economies.
This is a scam of epic proportions facilitated by failing to explore costs and focussing only on benefits.
The cat is out of the bag.
It’s past time for an open and honest discussion of these issues.
slaked lime
February 10, 2010 at 19:23
#1 and #2. Let’s fabricate some numbers, even if they are wrong. Then use them to prove you’re right.
What jokers. You would be taken much more seriously if you clearly understood the processes and the economics of the industry and the units used. Why do you keep on getting it so wrong. 2+2=4, not 3. Those who understand the industry just look at the nonsense like the first two comments and laugh at the attempt to discredit Tasmania’s most important industry.
The comments do the forest industry a favour. It reflects poorly on the comment authors.
Mike Bolan
February 10, 2010 at 20:25
#3. OK then what are the ‘correct’ numbers?
Horse
February 10, 2010 at 20:28
Dear Slaked Lime,
Would you care to elaborate? i.e. provide examples of where these figures are wrong? And maybe provide the real figures, since you seem to know all about it.
YOU would be taken more seriously if YOU could show where the other two commentators have been “getting it so wrong”.
Sounds like empty, unsubstantiated twaddle to me, Mr Lime.
It occurs to me that if Mssrs. Bolan and Groves were so wrong, then those MIS companies would not have gone belly-up. Any answers Mr Lime?
Horse.
Mike Adams
February 10, 2010 at 20:43
Slaked Lime. Let’s see you argue against Graeme Wells, then.
Let’s see you quote some relevant figures too, instead of just mouthing off.
Mike Bolan
February 10, 2010 at 21:02
The situation is probably worse than I’d calculated because it takes 15 years to grow those 150 tonnes of pulp wood, so it requires 15 years worth of water.
2 million litres per year x 15 is 30 million litres.
Costed at $10 Kl those 30 million litres are worth $300,000 for which we get a return of $2,000 over the period – if we’re lucky!
These are the figures that no-one wants us to know.
What could be the justification for locking into perpetuity a land use that returns $134 per hectare per year, and that costs us 30 million litres of water over the period?
Locking in the land to that low return effectively limits future generations to the worst returns possible from their own land (productivity/hectare, water, rates) all courtesy of government regulation.
Why must Tasmanians commit their land, without regulation, to be used for such an extreme low productivity use for ever?
Perhaps Mr Lime can enlighten us all?
Dave Groves
February 10, 2010 at 21:52
Sad but true.
Slaked lime is using, what I assume is a fake name.
Sad, because this person or persons unknown feels that he/she/it is a victim.
A victim of endless deep green conspiracies, to end what is really a profitable and completely sustainable business model-the Tasmanian forest industry.
Well Slaked lime, if you truly believe what you write, then best of luck to you, with my only advice….don’t get in too deep….or….
Perhaps even buy a log truck, if you don’t already own one.
I’m sure there are plenty available right now, so you should have the pick of the crop from those within, who disagree with you sentiments.
Perhaps you may feel an urge to cash up on Gunns shares.
After all, they are the premier woodchipping company in Australia, and despite around a 60% wash off, of their share price since announcing the pulp mill proposal, and their boss, Mr Gay flogging a healthy bundle of shares, they seem like a rock solid investment, wouldn’t you agree?
Back to reality for me, but you enjoy the show, like the rest of us 🙂
john hawkins
February 10, 2010 at 22:31
I suggest that Gunns are up the Tamar without a paddle and I paint this possible scenario.
The ANZ will not lend them any more money and are reviewing their assets against their debts. They owe us the people of Tasmania via the GBE Forestry Tasmania approx 20 million dollars. The only way out is to sell the unsaleable the woodchip piles.
The Bartlett government comes to the rescue with taxpayers dollars fixes a sale for a giveaway price, which of course they will never reveal, so as to refloat Gunns who payback a % of their debt to Forestry Tas freeing up their credit line so the trucks can start rolling again.
The public purse has been screwed. The tide has come in and Labor’s line in the Tamar mud has silted up!
I ask Gay, Abetz, or Bartlett is this fact or fiction?
If a fact and you have all colluded and I smell a Royal Commission in the offing.
Ben Quin
February 10, 2010 at 22:43
To add to the debate, this article appeared in today’s Australian.
Ben Quin
Economist calls for end to forestry tax breaks
• Asa Wahlquist
• From: The Australian
• February 11, 2010 12:00AM
HARDWOOD forestry managed investment schemes received tax-based subsidies of between $900 million and $1.2 billion in the five years to 2008, according to Australian National University economist Judith Ajani.
Dr Ajani said that, as a result, wood was now competing unfairly with food for agricultural land, water and other resources. She said government assistance to forestry and logging was equivalent to 42 per cent of the industry’s unassisted value added, with tax-based subsidies through managed investment schemes making up 77 per cent of that assistance.
“Government assistance to grain, beef and sheep, which includes drought-related payments, are around 7 per cent of their unassisted value added,” she said.
She warned that if managed investment schemes combined with forestry for carbon credits under an emissions trading scheme, vast areas of land would move from agriculture to forestry.
“At such significant differentials, government assistance works to redirect agricultural land, water and other resources away from food growing to wood growing, relative to an unfettered market outcome,” she said.
She said many investors in managed investment schemes would recoup just 25 per cent of their money, “so they haven’t turned out, for many investors, to be a very wise investment at all. The immediacy of the upfront tax deduction seems to blind the more considered judgment about wise investment.” Dr Ajani said the return from Great Southern’s hardwood plantation MIS was an estimated 1.9 per cent per annum.
She was critical of the Australian Tax Office for “providing a dispensation” to plantation managed investment schemes. “To receive that dispensation, the ATO must consider these investments are commercially viable. Without that deduction capability, most of these (schemes) would collapse.”
Dr Ajani said there was mounting evidence the schemes were not commercially viable.
“Many of them are not covering costs,” she said.
In the past year two major plantation forestry managed investment schemes, Timbercorp and Great Southern, have collapsed. But Dr Ajani said many others were still active in the market.
In 2009, ASIC reported 198 registered plantation schemes.
Speaking at the National Conference of the Australian Agricultural and Resource Economics Society in Adelaide yesterday, Dr Ajani called for tax-based assistance to forestry schemes to end, and for a Treasury review of the tax office treatment of forestry schemes.
Dr Ajani noted that the sale of Timbercorp’s 90,000ha of plantations, at an average of $2200 per hectare, was “significantly less than the establishment costs of any plantation MIS project currently on offer”. She said the assumed average investment in MIS hardwood plantations was $10,000/ha. But she estimated the actual cost of planting a hectare of trees and managing them over a 10-year rotation was $2000/ha.
She said many foresters claimed the assumptions about wood yields in MIS forestry prospectuses were optimistic, but her view was that price was “less of an overstatement than the wood yield”.
john lawrence
February 10, 2010 at 23:29
I don’t know what you guys are arguing about.
The New Forestry Industry Plan prepared by FFIC has all the relevant numbers in Table 2 on page 23 as I tried to point out in one of my recent postings.
This is straight from the horse’s mouth, not another TT blogger’s unsubstantiated assertion.
Proposed new investments (including the pulp mill) producing final goods have an estimated annual income of $1,260 million. Harvesting and cartage contractors plus additional support services have a projected income of $1,240 million.
Because the latter provide services to the former the net profit of the former is therefore $1260 million less $1,240 million. After depreciation, interest and other joint venture expenses, the profit figure becomes very small, in fact negative by a rather large amount.
And that’s just the accounting costs.
Arguably there may be social and environmental costs as well.
Little wonder ANZ were a little nervous.
Neo Conned
February 10, 2010 at 23:44
In defence of slaked lime.
who cares if you use a faked name… just say something that makes sense. It ain’t flesh and blood that is valued, its what it leaves behind.
Neo Conned.
Mike Bolan
February 11, 2010 at 00:09
Thanks Ben #9. Ajani moving to this position is going to make some of the environmental organisations duck for cover.
#10 Agree on the accounting for this non-business John. I’m making the additional point that the water has not been costed into the equation at all but that the scale of use is grossly out of proportion to any possible benefits obtained.
The other key consideration is that the government is locking forestry use into land in perpetuity, hence this absurdly costly non-business of ‘industrial forestry’ with its negative returns is forced onto Tasmanians for the foreseeable future.
The result is an economy that gets worse in proportion to the number of plantations that are forced onto us. Only a few forest industry people benefit, rural Tasmania loses.
As to Slaked Lime’s contribution, we’re still waiting for it!
Gerry Mander
February 11, 2010 at 00:49
What would have happened if Llewellyn, Gay and Gordon had not managed to find a way (unspecified) of shifting the unwanred piles of woodchips to Japan over the next couple of months?
1400 contractors out of work for at least two months, and many of them ruined financially and many of them never able to return to the work force again after the lay-off. The chipmill piles unsaleable as the chips deteriorate and burn due to the pressure. Gunns profits hitting rock bottom and their share price dropping through the floor with the possibility of the company becoming insolvent.
As the deal struck has not been released and it appears that Gunns might even be giving these uncertified chips away just to get rid of the piles, this means that there must have been another secret huge taxpayer subsidy arranged to save the the company and the jobs, as well as boosting the labour party’s prospects by not revealing the potential disaster facing their pet project. However, I doubt whether they will say so and the figures will not emerge until after the forthcoming election, which I am sure Bartlett and Llewellyn are hoping will remain in the shadows till then. I think it needs a few judicial questions and a little daylight shedding on the matter.
To me, the whole operation has a decided rodent odour about it.
Dave Groves
February 11, 2010 at 08:03
John, Ben, Mike….I’m just an old barrow boy…found a new toy….perhaps they wrote a song bout me….so to see some real brains put it out there is most helpful.
This whole shemozzle is worse that unsustainable….
the clock is ticking…..
It will be a good show to witness the final curtain.
Sooner the better, for all our sakes…….
phill PARSONS is beyond salvation
February 11, 2010 at 10:05
Now let me see if i can get the figures wrong too. Llewellyn sells 800,000t of woodchips to an unnamed buyer at and unannounced price and they sail away. They are replaced by the contractors going for it for about 3 months at the rate of harvesting 3,000,000 tonnes per annum.
And then?
FT gets a cheque from Gunns having had our money in Gunns bank earning taxpayers nothing and costing us to keep FT alive.
The market has not recovered and a principle has been set forcing the price of the FSC uncertified piles of woodchips down.
The next shipment is at rockbottom and the next and the next until?
Some plan.
Christopher Purcell
February 11, 2010 at 10:43
I wonder how much Backdoor & his washing machines knew about this deal. Maybe it was stitched up by Airdy & Llewelyn & the first Backdoor heard of it was when it was announced to the press.
Concerned Resident
February 11, 2010 at 13:10
Roll on March 20th, so we can, at last, get rid of this lab/lib/gunns monopoly of the state and its finances.
Anthony John
February 11, 2010 at 13:59
Re #3.People, we shouldn’t get too excited by posts such as this as anyone who claims forestry to be “Tasmania’s most important industry ” shouldn’t be taken seriously ! After all, the Industry employs about 7 percent of the workforce currently (directly and indirectly) and that figure is diminishing every year.It also contributes only 4 % of State GDP. Big deal !!
Sadly for all those whose lives are so tied to forestry, its a declining, old-world industry on life-support : propped up by indefensible, discriminatory government subsidies, scams and tax breaks. Take these away and the industry would fall-over. Vested interests of course cant allow that to happen.
Steve
February 11, 2010 at 14:21
Not being picky Mike, but your figure of $10/kl sounds a bit on the high side?
pilko
February 11, 2010 at 15:59
#20 Yes I was thinking the same thing. I think Bolan has just done a “Barnnaby Joyce” by saying kilolitres when he should be referring to megalitres. 10$ a KL works out to $10,000 a megalitre. Cough, Cough.
Most punters pay around $700 a mega litre for their water whilst Gunns has a deal with hydro to pay around $30 a megalitre for water for the pulp mill. I think Mike Bolan would help his cause if he cited sources for the figures he throws around. Otherwise he leaves himself open to the accusations that people like SL throw at him.
Having said that, Economist Graeme Wells has written a brilliant analysis, a damning analysis of the credentials of the Gunns Pulp Mill
Mike Bolan
February 11, 2010 at 16:48
#20 Fair point Steve.
The price/value of water varies from cheap ($7.00 Ml from Lake Paloona Hydro) to pricey ($2 litre bottled) and anything in between depending on its quality and location. I was told $640 Kl for domestic use in the W. Tamar and about $100 Kl for irrigation but I don’t have written verification for that.
I thought 100 litres for $10 seemed reasonable but even if you charged $1 per 1,000 litres, plantation water use would cost us around $800 million to grow pulp wood to supply one year’s worth for a Gunns pulp mill.
The point is that water is worth a lot more to downstream residents and irrigators.
Most commentators are betting that water can only increase in price as rainfalls decrease, so plug your guess in and do the maths.
This whole domain is carefully kept quiet by government and the forestry industry so it’s up to us to figure everything out ourselves I suppose.
Barry
February 11, 2010 at 17:09
“…its a declining, old-world industry on life-support : propped up by indefensible, discriminatory government subsidies, scams and tax breaks. Take these away and the industry would fall-over.”
Too right, Anthony John!
pilko
February 11, 2010 at 21:15
#22 You are out by 1000%. Its around $710 megalitre in the West Tamar – where I live.
You are pretty good at telling others to back up their arguments with facts Mr Bolan. Maybe you need to clean up your own backyard.
Dave Groves
February 11, 2010 at 23:13
WTC 75 cents/Kl…..for what its worth….
How much is that is mpg????
Child of the 60’s….bugger me…
max
February 12, 2010 at 00:05
No one wants our chips so the Government make an offer that is to good to refuse. This wonderful deal lets the timber workers build up another stock pile that no one wants, unless we give it away. How much longer can the taxpayers subsidise this industry and will the rest of the chip exporters word wide let us devalue the chip industry.
Steve
February 12, 2010 at 00:23
22; Sorry Mike. I was trying to be tactful but if you must insist in damaging your own foot, look at paragraph 7 in your post #2 and do the sums.
100l for $10 does not seem reasonable. Where do you live?!!!
I’ve got lawns, vegie gardens etc and whilst I’m not too sure if I’ve received a usage bill yet from the good people at Ben Lomond Water (too busy sending out service charges, what service we have yet to discover!)I’ll be horrified if it’s even a very small fraction of what you deem reasonable.
Mike Bolan
February 12, 2010 at 00:31
#24 OK thanks for the different figure. I give assumptions so that others can check them so if you have better figures then I suggest you use them.
Of course, your diversion into water pricing reminds me that the core issues are the singular inappropriateness of pulpwood plantations and the folly of supporting them, coupled with the total reliance that forestry has on taxpayer subsidies (see Ajani article on TT)
Whatever the value ascribed to the water, it’s an absurd amount of scarce resource to use to support a ‘crop’ that’s only returning around $100 hectare per year, that drains catchments, loses rural jobs and that leads to so many other dreadful consequences for rural Tasmania and Australia.
Only the forest industry could want such an outcome surely, so thanks pilko for helping to bring the focus back onto the key points.
We should all be thankful to Dr Ajani for bringing other land uses into her assessment and showing us all again of the insane subsidies needed by forestry for a pseudo business that wouldn’t survive for moments without taxpayers’ money.
No plantations – no pulp mill.
No subsidies – no pulp mill.
Graeme Wells article reminds us of the distorted ‘assessment and approval’ processes. Dr Ajani’s article reminds us of the cost to Tasmanians and the damage threatened to agriculture.
Pilko
February 12, 2010 at 01:11
#25 75cents/KL = $750 MegaLtr. My last bill said 71 cents, but yes the consensus is the charge is around 70c/kl or $700 ML. Industrial water charges are usually expressed in Megalitres, as were our WTC previously. I thinked they changed to expressing them in KL,s to make the charge look more benign.
According to Mr Bolan’s calculations 2 Million litres of H20 at $10/KL (1000L) will cost $20,000 (not $2,000 Mr Bolan!).
Can Mr Bolan cite an example where this occurs?
I find the notion that plantation owners would be charged $10,000/ML completely unbelievable.
In #22 Mr Bolan quickly reduces his estimate of $/kl by 90% to $1. Geez Mike. What gives?
And you are still way way off. If we were to charge plantation owners for water taken from catchments then 2 megalitres of water for industrial use would probably cost no more than $50 max based on other industrial water charges. This works out to about .5cent for every KL.
Ridiculously cheap, but so are most public natural resource charges fo Industry.
I would really like to know where Mr Bolan gets the figure of 2million litres of H2O from “catchments” required per hectare? What does Mr Bolan mean by catchment? What methodology does he use and is the 2megal-litres/hectare a net figure?
At this stage Mike needs to throw his ‘analysis’ out the window and start again
As much as would defend any attack Slaked Lime makes on the Well’s analysis, SL is right to question the accuracy of Mr Bolan’s figures.
Dave Groves
February 12, 2010 at 08:54
From the Ben Lomond water website….
Enjoy the price hike…..someone has to pay for those executives pilko…..
Water rate 2009/10
Description $
Water service charge 204.75
Volumetric charge per kl 0.7455
Ex- Esk Water
Water connection $
20mm 117.71
25mm 156.35
32mm 231.63
40mm 296.42
50mm 399.74
80mm 670.32
100mm 890.30
150mm 1,620.68
Ex – Esk Water
Volumetric charges $ / kl
Treated 0.3539
Settled 0.2657
Sewerage rate 2009/10
Description $
Sewerage service rate 242.55
Rate in the $ AAV 0.0080714
Prior treatment sewerage charge (Beauty Point) 210
pilko
February 12, 2010 at 12:22
#28 “I give assumptions so that others can check them so if you have better figures then I suggest you use them”.
You have just admitted that which I have accused you of many times on this forum but then I have consequently censored for. Congratulations for admitting that your figures on this thread were based on assumptions. Very loose assumptions I might add. Recognising the problem is the first step in fixing it.
Mike Bolan
February 12, 2010 at 15:08
As far as I’m concerned in the context of this commentary, whether water is $10 Kl or $1 Kl is pretty much immaterial to the basic point which is that pulpwood plantations cost us far more than whatever benefits they deliver. The only beneficiaries are forestry industries.
Why you want to spend so much time and energy on a matter which could have been corrected in 2 lines ($10 isn’t right, .70c would be nearer the mark) or similar is a complete puzzle.
There is a big difference between the value of water and its price. Current subsidies effectively reduce the price to particular users however the opportunity costs of such transfers frequently far exceed the benefits.
The plantation water usage figures came from Dr. David Leaman, the only hydrologist that I know who has studied them. If you have superior estimates then please advise, perhaps let David know.
The focus of this thread and my argument remain the same – the failed government ‘assessment’ process left many things out of consideration that are of deep interest to many people.
One of those things was the fact that plantations cost us far more than they benefit anyone, a matter that has not been adequately described. My assumed price for water doesn’t change that argument in any way.
If you are arguing in favour of pulp wood plantations then perhaps you could make that clear.
Johnno
February 12, 2010 at 15:47
This is bullshit people.
1) Forestry pays nothing for rainwater because its worth nothing so it doesnt matter how much water the plantations use. Simple.
2) Low $ yields per hectare would be offset by high yields from a pulp mill – which is why we need one.
3) The industry is being subsidised because we create jobs and convert otherwise useless forests into income and soon, power. Remember, we are the good guys here.
The mill will go at Long Reach, because thats the approved location and therefore its the best place for it. NIMBYs who always knew that was an industrial zone must learn to suck it up.
We need more plantations but were getting community, environment and business support now so more plantations will happen.
Mike Adams
February 12, 2010 at 15:54
Back to basics, please. $600,000 of ‘relief ‘has been given by the state government to the forest contractors to help them over these ‘difficult times’. That gift was almost instantaneous. Contrast it with the plight of the ACL workers who were kept dangling for weeks.
Gunns made $53M in profits last year. They have paid nothing towards the ‘relief’.
The government acts as though Gunns Ltd were a nationalised industry.
We know better. We know that the Tasmanian government is a Gunnsised one.
The Labor party once saw itself as an idealistic one: its legends abound: workers’ rights, union solidarity, human rights, social conscience and so on.
The stinking albatross around its neck has a label. Gunns Ltd.
There has been no governmental scandal, except for a minor sexual one, not connected with the pulp mill.
And still the party faithful react to the election by putting up candidates’ posters.
When Tasmanians start to think instead of reacting, we might get somewhere.
pilko
February 12, 2010 at 16:12
#32 It was you who said “its past time for an open and honest discussion of these issues”.
You are also one who bragged “the cat is out of the bag”.
You are also the one who taunted Slaked Lime because he questioned your numbers.
He was right. Your figures on water threw your numbers completely out of whack, which in turn calls into question the credibility of your commentary on this issue, especially as you are in the habit of putting yourself up as one who furnishes TT readers with facts.
For you to say….. “As far as I’m concerned in the context of this commentary, whether water is $10 Kl or $1 Kl is pretty much immaterial”…. is indeed very concerning. I,m glad you are not managing my finances!
Why don’t you just admit that you stuffed up instead of digging yourself further into a hole?
My argument with you is not over whether Plantations use their fair share of water and that plantation barons should pay for that water. My argument is with the dodgy figures you have used.
Mike Bolan
February 12, 2010 at 16:24
You’re right Mike.
From today’s Ex…The Wilderness Society welcomed the program (the $600,000 relief) but said the money should be used to move the industry from native to plantation forest.
What’s happening here? Plantations aren’t forest!
Plantations are pulp mill feedstock.
No plantations – no pulp mill.
No subsidies – no pulp mill.
But it seems the TWS is supporting both of these, welcoming taxpayer subsidies to contractors and setting up organisations to support plantations.
WTF?
pilko
February 12, 2010 at 17:57
#36 Ah. In case you hadn’t noticed. In Tasmania today we have
Plantations and No Pulp Mill. We also have subsidies and No Pulp Mill.
In case you hadn’t noticed this has been the case for a very long time. So much for your theories.
What your theory is about Mr Bolan is creating anxiety about things that haven’t actually happened. Sounds pretty dumb to me.
You have also said on this website that you are a fan of Kim Booths. A few years ago Kim Booth moved a motion in Parliament for the Bartlett Government to fund a $20 million financial exit package to allow contractors facing financial ruin to leave the industry”
Would you have opposed this also Mr Bolan?
I’m afraid as much as you and your deep green friends disagree with such relief being given to people in the industry, it is also a well known fact that many contractors are enduring severe mental health problems and talking of suicide because of the financial bond they find themselves in.
Yes the system is fucked and we cant just keep throwing good money after bad, but there are human lives to deal with here.
Gerry Mander
February 12, 2010 at 20:01
37. “A few years ago Kim Booth moved a motion in Parliament for the Bartlett Government to fund a $20 million financial exit package to allow contractors facing financial ruin to leave the industryâ€
There is a distinct difference in financing timber workers TO LEAVE the industry and to giving them support to continue working during economic downturns.
One closes the industry down and saves our forests, the other allows for the continuing destruction as soon as Gunns sees fit.
This package offered by the government, using our money, because the problem occurs prior to the election, it is basically pork-barrelling to see that they get re-elected. A similar problem with the McCain vegetable workers will only arise after the Autumn harvest, safely away from influencing election results, and therefore will be a low priority for bail-outs, regardless of any ‘food bowl’ visions. However, if I had my choice in where my taxes should be directed, I would definitely plump in favour of growing food rather than destroying our assets.
It would also be interesting to know, now we are on the topic of the government spending OUR money, how much has Bartlett’s $4 Million a day give-aways and other promises cost every citizen? There’s only half a million of us to foot the bill, after all!
Horse
February 13, 2010 at 00:24
Wish some people would spend their energy more usefully. I don’t get it “Pilko” – you now seem to be a great supporter of the plantation industry with all the associated health, economic and social issues. What gives? You used to be pretty outspoken against this sort of thing. What has changed your mind? Oh, I know – you’ve possibly fallen for that OCG rubbish…..well I suppose those ridiculous ads had to get through to somebody!
As for the comments in #33 well……….where do I start?
Firstly, the Longreach site is a long way from the BELL BAY industrial site, in fact, it was a wildlife reserve and buffer zone before Gunns got their greedy little hands on it. As for not paying for rainwater……jeez mate, did you come down with the last shower? Rainwater becomes groundwater and river water and irrigation water which all other users pay heavily for. Plantations in catchments intercept this water at a disturbingly high rate (why don’t you read the studies on this?) so it is not available for downstream users.
Horse Badorties
pilko
February 13, 2010 at 00:32
I refuse to begrudge the $600,000 given to logging contractors which gives them assistance to help them meet interest payments on existing loans.
The sermonising of heartless deep-greens in respect of this package only makes the environmental movement look…. heartless.
I would prefer a package that is conditional on contractors on moving out of the industry and out of mix species native forest logging for woodchip.
I reject the simplistic and unqualified condemnation of assistance given to any worker from any industry who through no fault of his own has been squeezed by greedy corporates and market forces and is facing crippling debts in the 6-7 figure range. When people get to the point that they are contemplating suicide the last thing they need is a sermon.
Contractors are facing the imminent shutdown of two of Gunns woodchip mills? What would Mike & Gerry tell these people face to face that they don’t deserve a helping hand?
I do not disagree that the taxpayer has a right to object to continuing to throw good money after bad. But I also recognise that most Tasmanians recognise and have sympathy when workers facing serious personal crisis. Regardless of our feelings about the overall state of their industry.
Steve
February 13, 2010 at 09:33
40; The problem is Pilko, these are not workers, they are small business operators.
I am also a small business operator. Over the years I’ve had various nasty situations, such as companies and builders going into receivership owing large sums etc. No-one has ever helped me. I’ve had to re-mortgage the house, negotiate with banks and suppliers, all through no fault of my own. Most other small business operators have had similar experiences, to greater and lesser extents. Never is the government there to assist. You can’t even get legal aid to pursue things as it’s a commercial matter.
The forest industry chooses to employ it’s “workers” on a contract basis so that the “workers” carry the can when downturns happen. Why is it that the deep greens are heartless, surely the industry that puts them in this position is heartless?
I do understand your point, I know several timber industry contractors and they are decent people, just doing a job. What I don’t understand is why they are more deserving then any other small business that falls upon hard times?
Dave Groves
February 13, 2010 at 10:00
The show is rolling along with spectacular flair and gusto.
A handy float for struggling contractors at election time is a juicy carrot dangled, but whatever happens, those who have hocked themselves to the eyeballs with specialist equipment, designed for a failing industry, should prepare for the inevitable.
On a personal level, I feel that pain, because I have been to that place also, but without any “bailout” or reprieve from vote licking politicians.
Fortunately, equity scraped past debt, and despite the apparent mortal wounds, I made it through.
Once again we could take the advice of Bartlett and “don’t look back”, well why would he want to when we have crisp visions of Lennon and Howard engaged in a Latham destroying love fest, that left the forest industry $800 million out of pocket, and sentenced the forest industry and environmentalists to what seems a never ending cycle of blame and finger pointing, with our politicians heartily throwing their share of barbs into the divisive fray.
Now we have environmentalists at each other, forest workers in dark places, and still our politicians see a sheet of paper with “Gunns proposed pulp mill, as the real solution to all woes.
Good god, what will it take for them to see the light, for the wounds to be healed?
It will be worse before better.
Why?
Because nothing has changed.
The cause is locked in more solidly than ever.
Government continues to fail to acknowledge any problems, therefore fails to look for solutions.
The grand opposition is also of the same cloth, but is focused on beating the government at the upcoming election, and will no doubt meter out more of the same, should they “win”, because they too fail to see any problem.
We have polarised the community by allowing these men of little value to “run” our state.
Time to change direction….it’s our only hope.
It’s all about equity, about removing friction.
When our leaders level the playing field, and stop shifting the goal posts, when they can remove evil systems they have designed, to favour one man over another, then, and only then, will true resolution find its place in Tasmanian history.
I live in hope.
pilko
February 13, 2010 at 11:45
#39 If you expect dialogue with me indentify yourself
Johnno
February 13, 2010 at 12:50
Im with pilko.
Give the industry more subsidies – we deserve it because we make jobs and were sustainable.
More plantations wont bring on a mill so give us more.
Anyone who objects is a deep green.
Yeah. Who you with in the industry pilko?
pilko
February 13, 2010 at 15:13
I agree with you Steve. The heads of industry and the Tasmanian government only have itself to blame for the appalling position it finds itself in.
Timber industry workers are indeed no more deserving of handouts than other workers.
You,ll get no argument from me there and your frustration and the frustration of other Tasmanian workers seeing one industry receive favourable treatment is a symptom of the sickness of the way logging industry is set up.
But how do you address the short-financial pain of these workers? I think we agree that you must do both. Deal with the short and the long term problem. Sadly the Tasmanian Government and the industry are showing no signs of coming up with a responsible long term fiscal solution to the industries problems.
Mike Bolan
February 13, 2010 at 17:25
#43 When I studied dialogue with Dr Chris Argyris of Harvard, he clearly defined
* attempting to score points off people,
* making false attributions about them,
* attempting to diminish people personally,
* constant hectoring and asking irrelevant questions,
* obsessing about minor details;
as being the antithesis of dialogue.
I will not respond to such posts in the future. It’s clearly a waste of my, and the readers’, time and does nothing useful.
My apologies to all for the results of giving that kind of material any air time.
phill Parsons remains beyond salvation
February 13, 2010 at 19:40
So now 2 props for the forest contractors have appeared, the sale of 8000,000t of woodchips and $600,000 to assist with interest payments.
Gunns may have made a financial contribution to continuing the income stream of forest contractors by taking a cut in the price per tonne paid. Indeed FT may be writing down Gunns debt now so more is being poured in to prop up this failed industry model.
Its so bad the FFIC decided the only way to fix it was to make it twice as bad.
However, all these are stop gap measures.
The industry needs a restructure so we can produce timber from a smaller resource base for high quality product and get out of the global markets which will require ongoing taxpayer support of an industry trying to compete in them. Just ask Dr Felmingham unless of course he has changed his line.
Tom Torquemada
February 13, 2010 at 19:44
Mr Bolan should have been more attentive at Harvard.
His dot points accurately mirror his own behaviour and arguments on Tasmanian Times.
He should do well to apologise, for his own behaviour, not others.
Justa Bloke
February 13, 2010 at 20:56
A response to #33:
1) “Rainwater is worth nothing.” Rubbish. All water is part of the same water cycle. Forests use water that would otherwise be used for irrigation, domestic or industrial use – all of these users pay.
2) What “high yields from a pulp mill”? Where is the evidence for this?
3) Where are these “otherwise useless forests”? I can think of a few better uses for our forests than their conversion into paper pulp. As carbon repositories for one.
The Long Reach site was originally part of land set aside as a buffer between the industrial zone and agricultural/residential areas. There may be some NIMBY element in the opposition to the mill, but in many cases, our back yard is the planet.
We need to phase out plantations because they are an ecologically disastrous example of monoculture, needing both economic and chemical support even to exist. They have replaced sustainable food cropping and dairying, and have completely obliterated communities such as Preolenna.
William Boeder
January 27, 2011 at 10:07
Unfortunately the State of Tasmania is well known for its poorly considered expenditures, a brief revue of what Paul Lennon considered important to our State during his time at the helm of this State.
The horse-racing industry, reported to be $25,000,000 dollars.
Hawthorn Football Club The huge costs that this has dumped upon this State of $17,000.000 over 5 years.
Add to that the State government subsidies grants concessions to Gunns Ltd, then the feeding of State revenues into Forestry Tasmania so to supply super-cheap logs to Gunns Ltd.
No figures available here but guestimations of say $50,000,000 dollars per annum for forestry. another floppo arrangement that costs the taxpayer dearly.
Hobart Hospital relocation studies and or feasibility’s $10,000,000y costs.
So far $100,000,000 million dollars, what returns are there for our government with this $100,000,000 expended?
The chance to lose money betting on race-horses, watching Hawthorn players belt other players about on Bellerive 4 times per year, then nil result from Hobart Hospital feasibility studies.
$100,000,000 dollars buys a lot of product, yet here in Tas it is pissed-up the wall?