I SHARE the view of the editorialist in the Saturday Mercury (4/6) that parliamentary committee hearings are an important part of the democratic process and can bring to light serious ministerial and bureaucratic shortcomings.
I also agree that these opportunities are not always well taken up by our politicians.
Many months ago I presented disturbing summary documentation regarding a Forestry Tasmania (FT) land “swap” to a Legislative Council committee examining the performance of the Government Business Enterprises.
The concerns were of considerable seriousness in that documents have revealed that tens of thousands of hectares of plantations on public land (worth hundreds of millions of dollars) have been transferred to FT as freehold title.
There has been, as yet, no satisfactory explanation of any equivalent return of assets to the community, by way of compensation, by FT.
Although details of the concerns and a suggested question to be posed by the committee to FT was provided to the secretary well ahead of time there was no discussion of the issue at all at the meeting.
It should be noted that lack of accountability and transparency is not peculiar to Tasmanian political processes.
Documentation regarding this land swap has also been provided to the Senate committee investigating the impact of the 2020 Plantation Vision. This committee has tabled its report many months ago and there has still been no action at all to address any of the myriad concerns raised including that of the land swap issue.
I am delighted that Bass MP Kim Booth has raised this issue again (as reported in The Mercury 3/6) and am eagerly awaiting the Auditor-General’s report.
Dr Frank Nicklason is a Staff Specialist Physician at the Royal Hobart Hospital.
Dave Groves
June 13, 2005 at 00:47
And this is the way the game is played in Tasmania…..
The goal posts are on a never ending mission to elude the ball and confuse all but the keeper.
Added to this dilemma are a multitude of rule books, all different and one for every player.
The umpire is also the coach and owner of the winning team and he is also in charge of the posts and the distribution of the rule books.
The spectators are just that.
Corporate funding keeps the show on the road, including payments to the umpire.
The grounds are given to the umpire for free who then charges outrageous admission to the spectators.
Any one who disagrees with the umpire will face the corporation in court.
Enjoy the game.
Paul de Burgh-Day
June 13, 2005 at 10:40
Dave Groves has the name of the game well sorted — the best short assessment I have seen!
Dr Frank Nicklason brought the focus back to a fundamentally important issue. Anyone running a book on whether there was ever a swap? I for one would wager there was not.
But there is another question of fundamental importance that has not been answered — not openly and honestly at any rate.
Why is the truth such a problem? Those who obfuscate invariably have something to hide.
The question:
Why were huge tracts of crown land, crown forests — the people’s forest — converted surreptitiously into private titles in the name of Forestry Tasmania? Titles that cannot be found in any search at the titles office. But they exist — lots of them fell off the back of a truck a few years back.
Any questions about this have met with initially, a wall of silence. Then when a federal polly started to ask questions, the answers had all the veracity of Iraqi WMD claims.
Does this not suggest that there is something to hide?
Maybe what we are seeing is evidence of a massive heist of the common property of the people of Tasmania.
I have some ideas on the subject. One day — sooner rather than later — the reason will become apparent. It will come dressed up in thick layers of spin combined with diversionary smoke and mirrors. It will most certainly not, in truth, be for the benefit of the people of Tasmania.
rick pilkington
June 15, 2005 at 15:34
ABC political reporter Annie Guest’s rather limp unanylytical report on Tim Cox’s Mornings Today showed that the Ombudsman had cleared the state govt. over this land deal.
Guest stated repeatedly that it should put an end to the ‘conspiracy theories’. She then explained how the Ombudsman had found that the state govt. sold the land and the trees to FT who only paid for the land, and presumably logged and flogged the trees. FT in return gave back a smaller piece of land which it got at a great price though the then state govt. gave them the trees on that land to log as well — presumably for free.
No conspiracy there!
Gee FT probably just caught the govt. (Libs at the time) on a really good day. Just in the right place at the right time.
Wombat Digger
June 15, 2005 at 20:50
Re: rick pilkington on 06/15 at 09:34 PM
What did you say Rick?
“Just in the right place at the right time.” ?
It depends for how long they get away, the final judgement may come some years later. Watch them, it’s just like a binge session, the end of that one is in sight for sure.
Very shifty!
Antibush
February 14, 2007 at 01:43
Bush is forever saying that democracies do not invade other countries and start wars. Well, he did just that. He invaded Iraq, started a war, and killed people. What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.
Are we safer today than we were before?
We have lost friends and influenced no one. No wonder most of the world thinks we suck. Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years, we do!
DON DAVEY
February 14, 2007 at 12:37
I personally have no time for Bush and his John Wayne persona, however i do get pissed off with post’s such as (6) with the tired old rhetoric of why we shouldn,t have gone ! the fact is that at the time the majority of the population were in agreeance, as well they were when Johnny took our guns after Port Arthur, and as for weapons of mass destruction , they did in fact exist but not in the form that most people associate such! and are most likely in a couple of suitcases somewhere in the desert containing the components of germ warfare, and various other nasties that he had already used on his own people and how soon we forget that he actually was sending missiles into Israel ! for christ sake ! get over it ! and let them get on cleaning up the devastation !
d.d.
Justa Bloke
February 14, 2007 at 13:55
Complete rubbish, Don. The vast majority of Australians were opposed to troops being sent to Iraq. We were never consulted.
You must be the only person left in the world who believes in the WMDs, in any form. As for Saddam’s missiles against Israel, that argument would justify an invasion of Lebanon (but they don’t have oil) and in any case, Saddam has been dead for weeks. If getting rid of him was the reason, why are we still there? In case he is resurrected?
The longer the US stays in Iraq the worse things will get. Getting out now will have bugger-all effect on Australia’s security one way or the other, but it will reduce the amount of killing in Iraq.
The only way America (and its little tagger-along) can win is by killing even more massive numbers of Iraqis. It seems as if that is what you are suggesting. Lovely. Do you also suggest raping more kids, sniper attacks on more grandmothers and some more dodgy aerial limb amputations? Aren’t two million displaced people enough either?
The best way to clean up the devastation is to give the Iraqis billions of dollars in reparations and let them do the work themselves with technical assistance where needed. Keep the World Bank out of it at all costs.
DON DAVEY
February 14, 2007 at 23:47
J.B.
i have already answered your post (8),it is not as yet posted,however having once more perused your assertions of my supposed, suggesting the raping of children, sniper attacks on grandmothers etc, i take deep exception to same , i have now been on this site long enough for people to have formed an opinion of me and my goals , and your nasty innuendo as to my character puts you further down the list than bloody herbert, so from here on you can fuck off! from here on in i refuse to recognise or respond to your crass insensitive drivel !
d.d.
Paul de Burgh-Day
February 15, 2007 at 01:23
Bit of discontinuity here!
This string began in June 2005!
Suddenly it resumes, with no subject relevance, with the remarkable comments (7) from dd.
Sorry Don, but remarks like yours could only come from someone whose mind has been conditioned by the bullshit we are fed by the mainstream media.
Justa Bloke is far better informed mate!
I have said a few times on this forum that anyone who accepts what they are told by the mainstream media has been conned. That is the role of the MSM – they are complicit in the shocking events unfolding in the Middle East – and other places. They are the mouthpieces for Bush and his puppeteers. The chief propagandist for the GOP in the USA is Ruppert Murdoch and his Fox News.
In the terms of the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials and the subsequent declarations, the Bush junta, Blair and his cronies – and John Howard – are War Criminals of the worst order.
This is very clear to anyone with eyes to see, along with a determination to see and understand the truth – to see what is really happening.
If anyone thinks I’m a bit over the top – I’m more than happy to expand on this – primarily by recommending some reading – of boos, or essays and other independent news sources. I don’t expect anyone to suddenly see the light! The enormity of the truth is difficult to grasp. Indeed it can be very painful. It will shatter a lot of life-long illusions.
A lot of people simply can’t do it. It is easier to keep the head firmly in the sand. To go on believing what the media tells you. Or politicians for that matter! Though why anyone still believes a politician is beyond me!
Justa Bloke
February 15, 2007 at 14:24
I take it from your response, Don, that you don’t approve of war crimes committed in Iraq. That’s good. We can agree on something besides the pulp mill.
I just wish you could also agree that the situation in Iraq is getting worse all the time and that the Americans should get out now.
It is clear that, as with the German occupation of various European countrties in World War II and the Japanese occupation of various Asian ones, the local insurgents will not stop trying to kick the occupiers out. For this, as with those earlier situations, they might need outside help.
The Germans and Japanese (and their tin-pot allies) had to be defeated before they gave up. Perhaps this will be necessary for the Yanks (and their dwindling number of tin-pot allies, including guess who).
America either stays in Iraq until it is completely defeated or it gets out and concentrates on attacking Iran. There seem no other feasible alternatives.
So, let’s forget about this and get this thread back to the issue at hand: lack of transparency and accountability in local political processes.
Can anybody suggest a means of restoring these principles in Tasmania today?
DON DAVEY
February 16, 2007 at 03:37
(8) @ (10)
1. i am completely right in my assertion that he majority of citizens agreed with the U.S decision to invade iraq, the fact that Aussie citizens were not consulted was at that time not relevant.
2. an immediate pullout from Iraq will send a message to those who practice terrorism that they have won and we cannot leave the majority of ordinary Iraq’s to suffer further consequence of same !
3. to believe that the raping and killing will stop when and if we pull out is utter bullshit ,it will escalate !
4.the MAJORITY of Iraq,s want the U.S and Aust. to remain until they are capable of taking care of themselves through the installation of a stable govt. If you dispute this fact ask an average Iraq citizen !
5. the coalition is not killing Iraq,s! except in retaliation ! insurgents and fellow iraq,s are committing the atrocities.
6. giving them billions of dollars to clean up their own mess ! what a laugh ! someone show me a country that didn,t misapropriate such funds in the past.
7. if my memory serves me both Japan, and Germany remained under U.S control for many years and in the case of Japan ! has gone on to be the worlds second richest nation, Germany is not too shabby either, as is south Korea !
8. if you Paul really believe i don,t read or am swayed by only what appears in the rags you really have your head up your arse.
9. w.o.m.d’s ! do you not believe that germ warfare and or chemical poisons etc are not such !
Sadam not only had them, he goddamned used them on his own people.
10. no ! i’m not the only one left who believes there were w.o.w.d ! i have also read widely and agree with the assertions that the weapons of the type i describe in all likelyhood still exist and given the size of such have not been found,for instance! should i inform you that i have hidden a couple of suitcases somewhere in Tasmania ,do you believe you could find them ! regardless of the amount of people i put at at your disposal ?
11. ressurecting saddam ! what an idiotic statement ! rightly or wrongly ! we have shit in their yard and we are obliged to clean it up ! because it’s the right thing to do ! and as a returned serviceman i would not like to think that Australians shirk their duty.
12. i don,t know your ages however your attitudes remind me of those who threw paint, spat,and pissed on returning viet vets, however i think you may well be still wet behind the ears and of the present ME! generation , never known struggle and hard times.
13. as voltaire said “i may not agree with what you say ! but will defend to the death your right to say it” and i live by it ! however accusing me of promoting the rape of children and the sniping of grandmothers, now ! thats a different ball game, and as old as i may be ,you have to hope you never cross my path !
d.d.
Justa Bloke
February 16, 2007 at 13:28
1. So how do you know if they weren’t consulted/
2. They’ve won already.
3. No evidence that it will change either way.
4. Wrong. Polls have consistently shown otherwise.
5. Who invaded whom?
6. Already billions have been misappropriated. They didn’t make the mess.
7. Irrelevant. I was referring to the countries they occupied.
8. Pass
9. He didn’t have them in 2003.
10. Find them.
11. So he’s still dead. Not a problem.
12. I’m old enough to have opposed our sending troops to Malaya. I’ve been spat on by people coming out of a church because I was opposed to conscription. i didn’t spit back.
13. I asked if you promoted these things. i accept your answer that you didn’t. But the Americans have done them and you want them to stay.
kate
February 16, 2007 at 14:50
Don
I don’t know if this is worth saying because you seem to have made up your mind but READ THE POST AGAIN
No one accused you of promoting these things!
You were ASKED if you agreed with them. There is a major difference.
Paul de Burgh-Day
February 16, 2007 at 18:48
Don,
I am content to leave you within your own comfort zone on Iraq, satisfied that you haven’t got a clue.
I can see that if I were devote hours of writing, setting out what is really being done there, I’d be wasting my time.
I do regret that you seem to think that being abusive is the way to discuss things. You are of course not alone on this – too many who have their say on this forum are given to dishing out personal abuse. I think it contributes nothing.
Good luck to you!
Paul
DON DAVEY
February 17, 2007 at 01:43
Kate!
I ask you also to reread post (8) Quote: the only way america and its little tagger along can win is by killing more massive numbers of Iraqis . “it seems that is what you are suggesting.” lovely.”do you also suggest raping more kids”.sniping more grandmothers and some more dodgy aerial limb amputations .aren’t 2 million displaced people enough either. !
Now ! please show me whatever it was in my post to attract such vicious attack.
The simple act of just asking such, i find abhorent in the extreme ,it appears that some will go to any lengths to gain attention, but not at my bloody expense !
d.d.
John Latham
February 17, 2007 at 21:59
What a weird string. Anybody like an icy-pole!?
Justa Bloke
February 17, 2007 at 21:59
Don, if you didn’t want me to ask those questions, (and, once again, I accept your answer) you shouldn’t have said that you want the occupation to continue. Because the incontrovertible facts are that this is what has been happening in Iraq since March 2003. American forces have been perpetrating these atrocities. Their own courts martial have found this to be so.
Any glance at history will show that the armed forces of occupying military powers have a tendency to rape and pillage, that aerial bombardment of residential areas will maim and kill civilians, including children, and that the occupied will resist with varying degrees of organisation and of violence.
The Americans have done this before, the Japanese and Germans did it in WWII, the Russians, Serbs, Napoleonic French, the Ottoman Empire, the Crusaders; you name it. Look at what the British did in India for 200 years.
The point is that military occupation of another country is wrong in principle and it leads to criminal atrocities in practice. If it is absolutely necessary (as in the immediate aftermath of the defeat of a tyrannical regime, eg post-Nazi Germany) there must be checks and balances in place, and plans both for withdrawal and fair economic restructuring.
One can debate the virtues or otherwise of the Marshall Plan, but there is nothing remotely like it in Iraq today. And Bush certainly has no withdrawal plans.
So the atrocities are bound to continue. Why do you want this to happen? Because some dead tyrant once had a suitcase full of germs? Because once the Americans pull out there will be fighting? If that is so now, it will be so in 2, 3, 10 years time. You just have to pick the number of extra corpses you want. Me, I’m going for zero. What’s your target?
DON DAVEY
February 18, 2007 at 11:38
(18)
J.b seems to have a hate complex with the u.s.a. perhaps an envy thing, pretty rife among we Aussies ,the cutting of tall poppies etc ! the japanese,germans,russians ,serbs,ottoman empire ? the crusaders? this guy really needs a reality check, The U.S.A may not be all things to all people however if not for them we would be either goose stepping or kowtowing to the japs ! how soon we forget ! and i am being accused of being influenced by the dailies ? Well ! we now live in the year of 2007 aaaand of the “FEW” incidents having involved the Yanks they are the first to pick up on the issue and prosecute their own ! as for David Hicks ,that issue is a military issue who so far ignore the civil courts, also why is it that when they sexually degraded some of the terrorists captured ( who knows they may have enjoyed it ), it made headlines worldwide ,meanwhile ! i saw the images of this poor bastard having his head removed (SLOWLY with a knife whilst being held down by a number of others) where was the outrage regarding that !
Whether we like it or not when the U.S.A gets a cold we all cough and like it or not should this country as (under militarised as it is) ever come under attack ! who are our greatest allies , we all know exactly who we would run to cap in hand ! so for all the U.S.A bashers out there , don,t watch their crap t.v. you cant beat the A.B.C. and S.B.S ! well! most of the time.
d.d.
Brenda Rosser
February 18, 2007 at 17:13
Barnaby Drake writes: “So this Shepherd, whoever he is, has a duty to make it abundantly clear to the populace in speeches and in the press, and at rallies and on TV and by propaganda or whatever means are at his disposal at the time, that these ‘inferior beings’ are ‘coming to get you’, are ‘under your beds’, and they are to blame for every ill that befalls the State and are a danger to ‘Our way of life’. The only course is elimination..”
Did you see the documentary on SBS this week? ‘The Power of Nightmares’. Very strong evidence that ‘Al Qaeda’ was made up by the neoconservatives to justify a preplanned wars.
“But much of this threat is a fantasy, which has been exaggerated and distorted by politicians. It’s a dark illusion that has spread unquestioned through governments around the world, the security services, and the international media…This is a series of films about how and why that fantasy was created, and who it benefits. At the heart of the story are two groups: the American neoconservatives, and the radical Islamists…”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1040.htm
Justa Bloke
February 18, 2007 at 17:39
Don, I have lived in the USA and loved the experience (apart from getting bashed by the Santa Clara County Tac Squad and threatened by some gun-toting liquor store owner who thought that by shooting me he could bust the boycott on non-union wines.) In some ways it was even better than Australia, and that’s right up there near the top as far as I’m concerned. I certainly don’t hate the place or its people.
I would love it if you could get one simple idea into your head: military occupation, no matter of which country or by whom, is wrong. It was wrong in all those examples I mentioned – some worse than others. In some situations, in certain conditions, it may be the least of evils. Iraq today is emphatically not such a case, which is clear from the numbers dying right now.
As for our debt to the Americans from World War II. We are betraying the citizens of that country by using our forces (such as they are) to prop up a military misadventure that they have decisively opposed. Friends sometimes need to give sensible advice, not just go along with destructive folly.
DON DAVEY
February 18, 2007 at 18:09
(20)
it must be remembered, whatever he outcome,it will ultimately be for their own goods ? ,here is no reason to listen to protests, for you must always remember “aresoles are like people ?” they all have an opinion ! well Gerry, all very trite ! you obviously are a huge “Dr Phil” Fan ! now ! what is your question ? and exactly what aresoles! are like what people! ? i,m afraid you (and I) got lost in your moment of glory !
d.d.
DON DAVEY
February 18, 2007 at 19:23
(poscript)j.b.
I is not an issue as to whether you “actually deem” to accept my answer , your kind just don’t get it ! it was an insult to me that you actually asked it ! when you damned well knew the answer , as usual! some will and can say anything in order to gain a laugh and or acceptance .
i have been called intolerant in the Past and i suspect will again, but never of being anything but compassionate towards my fellow man .
D.D
Justa Bloke
February 19, 2007 at 14:04
My post defending myself against Don’s accusation (Post 19) that I hate America seems to have got lost, so here goes again.
I have lived in America and loved the experience. American culture has been the source of a huge part of my aesthetic and intellectual enjoyment over the decades. Even when I was being bashed by the Santa Clara County Tac Squad or having a loaded gun pointed at me by a liquor store owner who thought that by shooting me he could stop the boycott of non-union wines, I loved the place and its people.
I don’t want any more Americans to be killed, injured or psychologically damaged by being sent to Iraq. I love them too much.
As for the debt owing to the US because of WWII, I’ll just say that you don’t repay a debt to a friend by betraying that friend.
It is a betrayal of the express wishes of the citizens of America for Howard to support a military action which they have demonstrably opposed.
There are times when friendship can be demonstrated better than by encouraging a friend in destructive, immoral behaviour. This is what Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and most of Europe and Latin America have done.
DON DAVEY
February 19, 2007 at 19:17
The Aussie tradition of cutting down tall poppies has always been an anomoly, perhaps it’s something to do with our predomonatory irish and convict heritage, the Yanks are much more like us culturally than any other single country and there is much that is wrong with their country ! but not as much pro rata than this country of ours, and the world owes them much as far as i am concerned.
I look at it the same way as i choose my friends , weigh up the good points and weigh up the bad, and if the good outweighs the bad then that will do me ! no ones bloody perfect ! except yours truly of course ,ahhh ! it’s a curse one has to live with.
d.d.
Justa Bloke
February 19, 2007 at 19:32
I’m glad you are compassionate towards your fellow-man, Don. I am sure you think you are. I am also certain that you oppose the proposed Tamar Valley pulp mill.
That is why it puzzles me as to why you support the ongoing destruction of the environment in Iraq. US military power has wrought and continues to wreak more damage than any pulp mill (and that’s not counting the deaths, injuries, rapes and dislocations.)
DON DAVEY
February 19, 2007 at 23:15
I really cant be more specific than i have been ! i was always taught as a child to clean up my mess, which this current “ME” generation doesn,t seem to understand .
You keep on about the current American military power as being responsible for all the deaths, rapes,injuries and dislocations ! which is patently untrue, of course they are killing, but in retaliation ! don,t forget it won,t be long before there 3000 young Americans killed and there will be many more angry mothers for the current regime to contend with , however the “atrocities” are carried out by the insurgents ! not ordinary Iraq,s, and Americans ! and once again let me stress that the majority of ordinary , average Iraq,s want peace and don’t want the allies to leave until they are able to run their affairs and deal with the insurgents ! this i know to be factual from a friend who regularly travels to and from iraq and i believe him absolutely!
Now it has been said that they should Nuke iran, because that is where the terrorism starts ! and i would include the Arab Emirates because they fund the bastards, however just how much can one nation do , our contribution is pathetic, then ! it may well be all we bloody well have .
Also i suspect it has become a matter of honour ! especially after vietnam, but whatever their reasons I feel personally that to leave them after the mess we have created would be a tragedy of vast proportions and will result in a huge escalation of terrorism world wide.
THe United Nations in its entirety should summon everything in its power and help the U.S bring the problem to closure , after all, the world , especially europe ! owes the U.S a huge debt, after world war two.
I have nothing more to add to the matter, i feel that you and others are deliberately misunderstanding my motives in order to gain some credibility for your arguments. You are patently wrong !
d.d.
Guy Parsons
February 20, 2007 at 06:57
There are lucid comments from two polarised sides in all this. I have to lend my support to Don, though.
History tells a story – in living memory, Britain tied up “peace in our time” just days before Hitler invaded another country; we (us – UN, US, Australia etc) allowed well-reported genocide to reign in Cambodia; we (us etc) allowed well-reported tribalism to run nightmarish riot in Rwanda; and there are all the in-between failures such as the Balkan hatred. North Korea, Iran, Pakistan are examples of dodgy administrations waiting in the wings, without all the new complications of stateless terrorism.
It will be always simple to simper in due course that “we” (or someone) has provoked “them”.
Turning your back on bullying is not really a safe manoeuvre, you just get punched in another place. I happen to believe that that is something we need to accept, worthy (in the broad view) even at the dreadful cost of our own life.
I need to hear from Justa Bloke that he has solved every personal difference with neighbours, work colleagues, family and people like Don (and, say, Paul Lennon and John Howard) without ever making concession to bullying.
Sock it to me.
old_devil
February 20, 2007 at 08:00
Just stumbled in here and can’t believe what I’m seeing: DD and the Bloke (two of the most sensible people on TT) going at each other? What’s going on?
For what it’s worth, here’s my 2 cents worth. Opposition to neoconservative plots to save the ignorant masses from themselves (see #21 above) does not necessarily equate to hatred of Americans.
Now, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Armitage, other agents of influence and their cabal, that’s a different matter. Do feel free to hate this malignant lot.
Anonymous Cause I Want To Be
February 20, 2007 at 14:31
My thoughts on Iraq are:
1. We were misled about the rationale for going into Iraq – i.e. as it turns out Iraq didn’t really have WMDs.
2. Saddam actually helped in misleading Western governments by his refusal to comply with UN resolutions regarding weapons inspections. I wonder if he stood on the gallows and thought, `if only I’d fully cooperated with the UN weapons inspectors I wouldn’t have given Bush an excuse’.
3. Every intelligence agency in the West – including the French and the Germans, who opposed the war – believed that Saddam had or was pursuring WMDs.
4. Saddam was a proven threat to stability in the region, should have been removed in the first Gulf War (but couldnt because the then Coalition would have fallen apart), and was the head of a murderous regime that maintained relative stability in Iraq (compared to now) only because he killed all opponents.
5. Whatever you feel about whether invading Iaq to remove Saddam was justified, to pull out now would leave a power vaccum which would result in a bloody civil war. The possible ramifications could be Iranian/Syrian intervention and/or the emergence of a regime hostile to the West.
6. The continued `occupation’ can’t be considered as such because a democratically elected Iraqi government has asked for those troops to remain!
7. It’s offensive to brand all American troops (and for that matter you’re tagging Australian troops too) as murderous, raping uncontrolled savages. The reality is that these soldiers are professionals. The criminal acts of a small minority are not being covered up, but are being investigated and prosecuted.
8. The best chance Iraq has of establishing a democracy is for the power of war lords and militias to be broken, with the democratic government strengthened before an election.
Justa Bloke
February 20, 2007 at 16:35
I shall never get Don to admit he’s wrong; after all he has a friend who regularly keeps him up to date with the facts, despite what the journalists report. I’d love, however, to know where in Iraq this friend flies in and out of so freely, how well he speaks Arabic and how widely he has surveyed the local population.
That aside, my response to Guy is that I have always tried to stand up to bullies, but not always successfully. Sometimes they have been physically stronger, better armed or smarter. We (and my memory is that someone else did most of the talking) did manage to get that liquor store guy (posts 22 & 25) to put his gun down, however.
It can sometimes be nothing more than glib to draw parallels between personal behaviour and international politics, but if a bully like Saddam could have been wiped out without half a million deaths, two million displaced, an economy destroyed and god knows what long-term environmental effects (and I am sure that he could have been), then some effort should have been made to do so.
The strongest, richest, smartest country in the world managed to get rid of leaders it didn’t like for fifty years without resorting to war every time. I believe it chose the war option in Iraq because of pressure from not just the neo-con power elite the old devil refers to (post 30), but also (and inextricably bound up with that) from the military-industrial lobby. Hundreds of billions of dollars were at stake.
I am reminded of a letter to the editor I read in the Launceston Examiner some months ago about bullying in schools. The writer said that the problem had been solved in a school he knew of where the Headmaster threatened that any teacher who refused to “thrash the bullies to within an inch of their lives” would be sacked and he’d make sure they never worked as teachers again.
I don’t know about you, Guy, but I see a parallel. There are a lot of nasty regimes in the world, and it is not craven appeasement to admit this and get on with our own business if the alternative is merely to add extra links to the chain of bullying. Ultimately, if and when people in smaller nations who are oppressed rise up and take their freedom, we can applaud and assist in practical, peaceful ways, but until then, armed intervention from outside will only make things worse.
In cases of would-be world conquerers like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, the issues are different, although even then it’s not so black and white. One day I’d like to see a debate on whether in 1942 the Japanese or the British had a greater ethical claim to the Malayan Peninsula, but that might upset Don too much.
DON DAVEY
February 20, 2007 at 21:27
J.B.
as my parting remark ! britain and the malayan peninsular are not relevant to the world in 2007, hopefuly we have moved on and become wiser.
There will always be dissent as to whether going to iraq was the right thing ,however if one see’s, someone being beaten by thugs outside the local watering hole, do we turn our back’s and run pretending that we didn,t see it ? don’t think I could ! even though at my age i have lost most of what edge i once may have had , and ok it turned out bad, but to now leave the majority of good well meaning Iraq people in such a goddamn mess right now ! as many are calling for , is absolute folly for which the participants would eventually feel absolute shame.
My friend (perhaps it would be more proper to call him a close aquaintence of a group of supporters that i belong to ) is an Iraq who has much of his family still in Iraq and is currently there as we argue the toss and as for this debate perhaps it has got out of hand as it originally started with me taking exception to the remarks to my character by J.B.(maybe without malice and intention)i would hope so.
Old devil, thanks for the nice comments (whether deserved or not) ,i have to agree that until J.B.s onslaught i shared your remarks as to his postings,however it has to be said that ,tomas ,bonham ,herbert and co would have been following this with glee, as it has diverted us from our common goal to stop this goddamn mill , so i suggest we get back to it.
ciao,
D.D.
Justa Bloke
February 21, 2007 at 11:31
Actually, Don, it started with Antibush’s post (#6) and your subsequent (post #7) defence of the occupation.
I apologise to Frank for the course this thread has taken and would like to add that his wish for transparency and accountability in government (which I endorse, for what that matters) has as much chance of being fulfilled as the Americans have of ultimate victory in Iraq.
DON DAVEY
February 21, 2007 at 13:31
I don,t know why i am bothering except for the fact that your reactions to me seem out of character, why split hairs ? the problem indeed started with your attack upon my character in (17) re my post (16). but apparently, you need the last word ! you may have it! as it appears an apology is out of the question.
I would have thought better of you.
ciao
d.d.
John Herbert
February 21, 2007 at 15:29
Hey Don I agree with you on your post number seven. That is something, the same time I climbed off the floor in your estimations as well, good news.
Many people with more nous that old Justabloke realise that Hussein could not be trusted not to gear up some terrorists with some truly nasty stuff and take a sub up the Hudson and boom. We would be talking about a downward spiral. Hence his disempowerment.
It seems to me that you actually understand the nature of power as it applies in the real world, many posters here are in the post modern vacuum of our own western institutions with very little anchoring to imperfect world in which we live. Just wait…oh no I’ve been fingered by the argumentitive drivel police.
DON DAVEY
February 22, 2007 at 01:19
(36)
i,m actually speechless !
d.d.
Justa Bloke
February 22, 2007 at 12:37
“The nature of power as it applies in the real world”? How about the fact that Saddam was so shit-scared of Iran that he would have preferred to keep onside with the US?
Chomsky once suggested that instead of invading Iraq, Bush should have got the Iranians to do it. Would have solved a lot of problems.
Now, the best hope for the Yanks is to keep their bases in Iraq while the country self-destructs around them, and to use those bases (along with the ships in the Gulf and bases in central Asia) to launch the attack on Iran.
One thing’s for sure: nobody’s going to clean up any mess. Tell the bloke who suggested that idea that he’s dreamin’.
old_devil
February 22, 2007 at 14:47
Oh yes, one more hijack. I just remembered that in a rare lucid moment, Dubbya eulogised Saddam following his hanging. Readers of TT might find the eulogy edifying: http://weeklyradioaddress.com/Sounds/WRA_061230.mp3
John Herbert
February 23, 2007 at 11:43
Chomsky and ‘facts’..mmmmm dubious JB very dubious.
DON DAVEY
February 23, 2007 at 15:03
(38) Maybe not ! J.b but that doesn,t mean they shouldn,t keep trying, however had you seen foreign correspondent Feb 20 i believe you may have had a different perspective entirely, then maybe not. if not the check letters ex. sat 25 under heading, help iraq more ! J.b. one last question ! if in fact W.M.D,s “had” been found , would you still feel that we should not clean up our mess.?
d.d.
d.d.
Paul de Burgh-Day
February 23, 2007 at 18:07
So far, nobody on this curious thread which began on a totally different tack, has any idea of the reality viz a viz Iraq. Nor what is in store for Iran. Almost every assertion on the subject has been founded upon the lies and disinformation put out by the US administration, parrotted by our own government and sold as ‘fact’ by their complicit and compliant media aka MSM = mainstream media.
All of you, in varying degrees are living in a delusional world – which is what the global puppet masters intend. One thing I have come to understand is that it is part of the human condition to only see and hear what we want to see and hear. And it is true that truth and or reality can be very painful concepts.
I find myself being one of a small group of individuals that are driven to know the facts. To find the truth – no matter how dreadful it may be.
11th September 2001 is a highly visible case in point. Most folks in the USA – and here – prefer to accept the official story – even as it went through many modifications. Yet that story is, to anyone with even a modicum of critical thinking, a load of bulldust. Key elements are outrageously implausible. Like – for example – the US air defences were stood down that day. The routine procedures that had worked as planned some 60+ times in the year prior to 9/11 for intercepting errant aircraft – totally failed on 9/11. Now who really believes that Osama bin Laden, sitting in a cave in the mountains of Afghanistan, was able to stand down the North American Air Defence system?
Another item – WTC 7 collapsed into its footprint late on that fateful day. It was not hit by anything of substance. A couple of small fires appeared. What brought it down? How? Why? The 9/11 Commission Report makes no attempt to deal with that. The demonstrable fact is that it was a controlled – something that had to be planned and installed well before that day! Think about it folks. So too were the twin tower collapses.
I can provide you with countless facts about what really happened. It is there for anyone who cares to look – who really wants to know the truth. But no, most of us prefer not to know. The consequences of knowing the truth opens up a whole lot of very nasty questions.
I mention 9/11 because that catastrophic day is what enabled so much that has followed. That includes Iraq. As I think even the most ardent supporters for what the USA – with our help – has done to that tragic country now recognise, the whole basis for it was a massive fabrication. Some of the comments on this forum about WMD amaze me! Utter bullshit!
For now, I am just going to say one thing about Iraq and the shocking condition it is in today. What we see now was always the plan! Everything else – reconstruction, democracy, freedom – is and was from the beginning – a monstrous lie. The next part of this ghastly tragedy is to realise the role of Israel. To recognise that the driving force behind the Iraq disaster is the Israeli government and its nice security/intelligence operation Mossad.
Wow! I can hear the howls of protest already! Most of you I am confident will refuse to accept what I say. I will have the ‘anti-semitic’ bone pointed at me – not the first time. I’m not actually – and I refuse to be intimidated by this epithet.
I will now give you pointers on where to look – knowing that most of you will not dare to go there. You won’t want to know. It is easier to live with comfortable delusions than it is to face the truth.
Where to start? For me, the most compelling book on the subject is . . .
The Power of Israel in the Unitesd Staes by James Petras
2006 USA ISBN: 0-9932863-51-5 Canada: 1-55266-15-2
For information about the author and this book, go to
http://www.atlasbooks.com/clarity/b0030.htm
If you google the book title, you will find many more references.
You can get it from various US sources including Amazon – locally if you go to Readings in Melbourne, they can get it for you.
My five plus year quest for ‘the truth’ of this world we live in had brought me close to understanding what Petras has to say. His book has pulled everything into a clear and compelling – and frightening – picture.
The question before me – now I know and understand what we the people are facing today is – where do I go from here?
Maybe I just go back to smelling the roses?
old_devil
February 24, 2007 at 00:11
Paul: several members of the cabal I referred to have been described as agents of influence working for Israel – Richard Perle being the most likely. Let’s not however confuse lobbying or more covert activity with some sort of global Zionist plot.
It is unfortunate that any criticism of Israel or activists like Perle and Wolfowitz is automatically labelled as anti-Semitism. It is akin to labelling opponents of Bush / Cheney as anti-American. Neither of these are necessarily related positions. This tendency stifles debate and inhibits the search for truth – indeed sometimes that may actually be a deliberate tactic.
I don’t think you’re necessarily being anti-Semitic, but I do think that to blame 9/11 and what flowed from it on some sort of Mossad / CIA conspiracy is being simplistic, paranoid and unnecessary. Such conspiracy theories are as much a fanciful myth as the supposed connection between Saddam and islamist terrorism. In the end such myths serve only to obfuscate the truth which is a good deal more complex.
I prefer, and would commend Andrew Wilkie’s analysis in the thread “Iraq: blood on our hands” http://oldtt.pixelkey.biz/index.php/weblog/comments/2340/ .
Personally I am deeply worried about people who see themselves as “…. one of a small group of individuals that are driven to know the facts”. This smacks too much of the “vanguardism” integral to the current troubles: the neoconservatives inspired by Paul Wolfowitz and the islamists inspired by Ayman al-Zawahiri.
Tomas
February 24, 2007 at 00:16
Paul de Burgh-Day – the well of anti-semitism is indeed deep. I have often struggled with this nastiness in Tasmania even though many Tasmanian would have been lucky to have met any Jews, not to mention having visited Israel and the middle east. I think that if you seriously believe the events of Sept 11 2001 were driven by the US and Israel – and that the Iraqi misadventure was created by Israel – then … Your post is shocking and sad.
DON DAVEY
February 24, 2007 at 02:51
(42) hooooooooooooo!wooooooooooooo! this guy also probably reckons … the holocaust never happened, and the earth is flat, and the twin towers were trick photography.
Hey folks ! the twin towers were a conspiracy, those two planes we saw slamming into them was all made up and never happened just like the men on the moon ! it was all done with trick photography . so there !
d.d.
rat
February 24, 2007 at 13:32
Thomas is right about the ugly vein of anti-semetism that runs deep in Tasmanian. The green left is prone to it and I suspect it’s now oozing out of this thread like the first blood from a cut.
A few of years ago there was a Yahoo discussion group called TasTalking where resided some of the mutual backslappers you now see on TT. This group eventually self-destructed on an orgiastic anti-semetic topic. The author of post #42 above was a key participant.
It was amazing to see this group, with such a strong mutual hate of the Tasmanian forestry industry, divide up into either racist anti-semetics or those who were weren’t.
I suggest the keeper of this blog just delete the whole thread, for fear it goes the same way.
Tassie Smurf
February 24, 2007 at 23:17
Well, actually, Don (#45), Paul is not too far off the mark. There are too many inconsistencies in the whole 9/11 saga, and I have several DVD’s pertaining to some of the background to it. If you forward your mailing address (off-post) I will post this info to you.
It is so, so easy to dismiss this info as a conspiricy theory (yes, some of it, I agree, goes overboard) but there are small bits and pieces that just don’t make sense (one is the collapse of WTC 7, as mentioned by Paul, another is the stand-down of NORAD on the morning of 9/11, etc.).
…anyway, let me know if you are interested?
Justa Bloke
February 24, 2007 at 23:52
Don (post #41): it might help things if you read what I posted instead of using your imagination. I have always believed that we SHOULD clean up our mess (‘our’ meaning that made by the coalition). I also repeat that there is no chance that we ever WILL. The USA has already said that they will spend no more on reconstruction. Then they turn around and commit another 21500 combat troops.
But the reason for all this is now clear. Dick Cheney has told Australians that if we don’t stop the jihadists in Iraq, they might reach as far as Indonesia. Somebody forgot to tell him about the Bali bombings four-and-a-half years ago.
I reckon that if they were in Bali in 2002 (and not in Iraq) and now they are in Iraq (and no evidence of them in Bali) then they are moving further away from Australia all the time.
I don’t entertain conspiracy theories about 9/11, but I have never read a satisfactory account of how and why building #7 collapsed when it did.
DON DAVEY
February 25, 2007 at 03:34
Also p.d.b.d.
my post 42 was much more elaborate and informative how ever Linz in his wiwdom may have seen something not altogether kosher and decided to eliminate same.
D.D.
old_devil
February 25, 2007 at 10:35
“Thomas is right about the ugly vein of anti-semetism [sic] that runs deep in Tasmanian [sic]. The green left is prone to it ….” This is crap on so many levels it defies reason. On the other hand ask your average red-neck what they think about aborigines and stand back. You want racism in Tassie? That’s where you’ll find it!
DON DAVEY
February 25, 2007 at 11:44
(47)
nah ! not in the slightest ! i live in the real world ! warts and all !
d.d.
John Herbert
February 25, 2007 at 14:55
Don’t tell me smurf, those DVD’s are highly edited with some crunchy rock guitar thrown in. How little it takes sometimes.
Maybe you and Paul De Burgh have been breathing deeply that Berkeley air because if you hadn’t you may have a clue as to the reality of decieving thousands of people for thosands of hours over thousands of different perspectives.
You’ll find lies are easy to perpetuate on an uncalibrated medium such as the internet but to lie in the three dimensional now, well thats actually impossible on the scale of which you speak.
You should get out more often, maybe build a house or a fence,chop down a tree or get a few days labouring on a worksite, it will enlighten you as to the true nature of reality. Otherwise that editing and crunchy rock guitar is gunna get you everytime.