Tasmanian Times

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. No price is too high for the privilege of owning yourself. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. No price is too high for the privilege of owning yourself. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Economy

The Embalmer from Burnie who Buried the Liberal Party …

*Pic: This entry on the Geni website is managed by Stephen Shane Parry now the ex President of the Senate. It describes the ancestry of his British father William Stephen Parry making the Embalmer from Burnie a dual national. It was last updated by him on December 18th 2016.

image
Eric Abetz in the Senate from his website

First published November 6

In early May I wrote to each of the 12 Tasmanian Senators – including Senator Stephen Parry – regarding Senator Eric Abetz and Section 44 … as recorded on Tasmanian Times ( John Hawkins’ questions for Eric Abetz ).

I received only one reply and this was from Catryna Bilyk, a Labor Senator for Tasmania. Bilyk in part replied:

“Your questions imply a number of serious allegations that are best dealt with by the proper authorities …

“The issue of a Senator’s eligibility to be elected to the Senate is a matter for the Court of Disputed Returns. I note that Senator Abetz’s case has already been dealt with by the Court.”

Senator Parry did not reply but my letter would have alerted him to his current predicament.

It is beyond belief that Parry did not raise the matter of my letter with his State Liberal party superior, one Erich Abetz, seeing that it was addressed to all Tasmanian Senators including Senator Abetz.

Abetz, to his own advantage, had lain low over his German citizenship while remaining for 16 years a dual national in the Senate until challenged by myself before the High Court.

A challenge by an individual can only be heard within 30 days of an election. I suggest that Abetz told Parry that he could clear the matter up by renouncing his British citizenship just before the next election – and then the coast would be clear.

This tactic had worked for Abetz, and Parry has certainly been lying low.

It is beyond belief that Emma Alberici on Lateline did not raise the matter with Abetz concerning his appearance before the High Court, acting as the Court of Disputed Returns, over his right to sit in the Senate as a dual national.

This was a matter that he dodged immediately prior to the 2010 election by obtaining a Certificate of Renunciation of his German citizenship. As a result I was forced to withdraw my case before the High Court.

The Renunciation certificate did prove that Abetz had been sitting in the Senate illegally for 16 years as a dual national – because one cannot renounce a citizenship one does not have.

Is it the case that Abetz will only appear live on television or radio if the questions are agreed beforehand?

If so, did Alberici agree not to raise with Abetz the subject of his appearance before the High Court over Section 44 in order to get him to appear?

If not then why, on this key point, did she not make the matter of Abetz sitting illegally in the Senate for some 16 years crystal clear to the viewing public?

The same shallow questioning applies to Leon Compton when interviewing Abetz on citizenship matters. I rang and asked Compton about screened questions but I was summarily dismissed.

If I am wrong over screened questions, why will no-one ask Abetz about his appearance before the High Court under section 44? Surely this is the key to all his answers on the subject matter of dual citizenship.

I suggest that Abetz knew of Parry’s problem over dual nationality.

Senator Peter Whish–Wilson (Greens’ Senator for Tasmania) had raised the matter of Abetz’ citizenship, as recorded in Hansard in the Senate on the 9th August 2017, and the matter (after objection) had been referred to Parry by the Deputy President, Parry being absent.

Now that Parry has been booted out of the Senate this poses an interesting question … did Parry protect Abetz from having to answer the Whish–Wilson matter before the Senate when he himself was in a similarly position?

Was the fact that they were both sitting illegally in the Senate, at one time or another, discussed between them?

Parry owed his election to the Senate to Abetz, and his position as President to the continuing patronage of Abetz to whom he was therefore honour bound to protect.

Failure to do so can have political consequences.

Abetz had seen off Colbeck, a Cabinet minister in the Abbott government, by putting him in the unwinnable Number 5 position on Tasmania’s Liberal Party election ticket.

It is a nice thought that he is back in the Senate courtesy of Parry’s stupidity over filling in his nomination form.

Abetz probably suggested that the best course of action over citizenship was to lie low, a strategy that had worked well – and so far always has.

• DID PARRY PROTECT ABETZ from having to answer the Whish–Wilson questions …

Extract …

… I have been open with my documentation. I also know that Senator Di Natale has been open about his, but it has been brought to my attention that one person in this chamber has not been willing to clear up public speculation and doubts about their efforts to rid themselves of dual citizenship when they were duly first elected: Senator Eric Abetz.

We know that Eric Abetz was once a German citizen. We know that he is now no longer a German citizen. What we don’t know is whether—or how long—he sat in this chamber before he rid himself of his dual citizenship. It could’ve been anything up to 16 years. We don’t know whether he took all reasonable steps to renounce his German citizenship before he took his place in the Senate. He has previously said he would publicly release documentation, but I understand he has not done so …

Read Peter Whish-Wilson’s full speech HERE

Watch Emma Alberici’s Lateline interview with Eric Abetz HERE

*John Hawkins was born and educated in England. He has lived in Tasmania for 13 years. He is the author of “Australian Silver 1800–1900” and “Thomas Cole and Victorian Clockmaking” and “The Hawkins Zoomorphic Collection” as well as “The Al Tajir Collection of Silver and Gold” and nearly 100 articles on the Australian Decorative Arts. He is a Past President and Life Member of The Australian Art & Antique Dealers Association. John has lived in Australia for 50 years and is 75 this year. In two of the world’s longest endurance marathons and in the only teams to ever complete these two events, he drove his four-in-hand team from Melbourne to Sydney in 1985 and from Sydney to Brisbane in 1988.

Mercury: Eric Abetz steps up pressure on Braddon MP Justine Keay to prove she renounced British citizenship

ABC: MP Justine Keay took steps to renounce UK citizenship one month before nominations closed

• John Hawkins in Comments: Dear Editor, The Wikipedia site ( HERE ) for Senator Erich Abetz is very closely watched … I revised and edited the Wikipedia entry for Abetz under the section entry, Eligibility to hold Senate office at 0735 today 6 November 2017. By 0851 some 75 minutes later my entry had been removed and the subject matter re-edited by Liguer, presumably acting for Senator Abetz. This has happened before …

• Brenda Rosser in Comments: I revised and edited the Wikipedia entry for Abetz under the section entry, Eligibility to hold Senate office at 0735 today 6 November 2017. By 0851 some 75 minutes later my entry had been removed and the subject matter re-edited by Liguer”…” The same thing happened to me when I tried to correct the erroneous figures of the extent of land in Tasmania protected from deforestation. Quoting official reports from the Tasmanian and Federal Government. Still it was erased and reverted back to the document’s original lies.

• John Hawkins in Comments: Brenda, how very interesting. I think we are touching the tip of the iceberg that is Fake News controlled from the Dirt File HQ in Canberra that gives Abetz his power. Mantach was the most obvious manifestation when he was forgiven half a million for not spilling the beans. Liguer is smart … he has a user account with Wikipedia meaning that it is impossible to track his IP address. How many more readers of TT have had their Wikipedia contributions trashed by our political masters? We are well into the Orwellian world of controlled information.

Advocate: Keay confirms she British at time of nominations

Advocate: Citizenship fiasco: Brett Whiteley would make comeback bid

Fairfax: Malcolm Turnbull plans to recall Parliament to deal with citizenship issues

• Bob Hawkins in Comments: Have just listened to ABC’s World Today. I can’t believe that, of all people, Eric Abetz would even think of buying into the dual citizenship debate. But there he was, as spooky as ever, intoning advice. Yet it’s not really surprising: he would be an expert in the question of dual citizenship.

• Lyndall Rowley in Comments: … I’m still flabbergasted by the deafening silence re the Criminal Code that already applies for providing false or misleading statements. But I’m guessing our leaders don’t want to mention ‘the war’. A penalty for up to 12 months imprisonment isn’t a good look for our MPs and Senators. And then there’s the unexplored issue surrounding unqualified/illegitimate Parliamentarians and voting legitimacy in Parliament, pay & pensions. Just the tip of the iceburg as well?

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52 Comments

52 Comments

  1. John Wade

    November 15, 2017 at 9:08 am

    Information from … is that payment has to be repaid and then it is refunded.
    That means, wages, entitlements paid to an ineligible politician is claimed by the government and then refunded to the ineligible politician.

  2. Simon Warriner

    November 15, 2017 at 7:02 am

    re #50

    “I’m strong on this: Nup! No divided loyalties … renounce or don’t stand. ”

    Exactly why we are in this effluent pond.

    So many of those caught come from a very large pool of representatives who divided their loyalties between their parties and their constituents, Lambie included.

    Right there is the problem, stupid people doing stupid things, and the voters hold the cure.

    Vote Independent.

  3. garrystannus@hotmail.com

    November 14, 2017 at 6:06 pm

    Yeh Pete (#48) … I had a mate (Keith) in the early 70s who knew where he’d be on New Year’s Eve, 1999… it was going to be on the steps of such and such a place in London where people gathered to ‘bring in the New Year’. He told me that his parents were British, and that because of that it made him British too. I don’t know if he ever got there for that New Year, though he did travel there somewhere along the line…

    Look Pete, I don’t know if everyone noticed the important bit in that Wikiquote of mine: For children of Brits, they become automatic Brits at birth … unless their parent/s had themselves acquired “British citizenship by descent”. So, even though I know I’ve got British forbears, that’s not enough for me to be a British citizen ‘by descent’. One of my parents would have had to have been a ‘true blue’ Brit.

    I’m glad Jackie Lambie goofed up. She was very hard on people when she had the opportunity, and I see that a lot of the Senate lined up with the tissues and so forth. I’m glad she’s gone, and don’t want to see her back. She … (unless there is some very complicated scenario that I’m unaware of) … she knew her Dad was a Scot., yet is seems she didn’t follow the very explicit advice that the AEC gives to all candidates.

    Look, I haven’t got spare time just now, but in some of the material posted by John (Hawkins) in his latest, I think, a sub-section of s44 of the Constitution is quoted and I believe that with regard to criminal provisions regarding false or misleading information supplied to the AEC by candidates … I believe that the criminal sanctions are applicable to those who have intentionally/knowingly misled the AEC. You can see – given the ‘burden of proof’, that there might be some difficulty in establishing as a fact that Members now seen to have been in breach of the Constitution … knew that they weren’t eligible to stand for election/become a member of our Parliament.

    I’m strong on this: Nup! No divided loyalties … renounce or don’t stand.

    [PS: Interestingly, the state of Tasmania (Act of Constitution … 1934 I think it is … could be wrong) does not require that those standing for election to our state Parliament be of undivided loyalty. I’d guess that the situation is the same for other states. It is our Federation that requires no divided loyalties amongst those who we elect to govern us.]

  4. Simon Warriner

    November 14, 2017 at 5:07 pm

    re #46, 47, 48 …

    There is much about this matter our news media is avoiding like the plague.

    It starts with the incompetence Lyndall points out, goes through the quite pointed ignoring of real consequences for breaking criminal statutes, and ends with the removal of comments about the issue also applying to those who identify as Jewish being caught up in the issue.

    Quite the education there for those willing to let their eyes do the teaching.

  5. Pete Godfrey

    November 14, 2017 at 9:14 am

    #47… Garry, I was born in Sydney in 1955. My father was born in England in 1927. I am eligible for it and I have held a British passport because of my father being English. He was naturalised sometime in the 1960s but I am still eligible for a British passport. I have let mine lapse as I have no intention to go overseas.

    I got my British passport because at the time we had a prime minister who was known as “the lying little rodent” and I was ashamed to travel on an Australian passport which I also had.

    British ones aren’t as good now that Britain is pulling out of the EU.

  6. garrystannus@hotmail.com

    November 14, 2017 at 12:07 am

    Re Andrew’s #45 … Wikipedia provides the following … [Here: A child born outside the UK on or after 1 January 1983 (or outside a British Overseas Territory on or after 21 May 2002) automatically acquires British citizenship by descent if either parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent at the time of the birth.]

    I quite agree with Lyndall’s #46 which queries why the Criminal Code is not being used against these persons. I would like to know why none of these politicians seems to be facing the force of the law. One rule for them, and another for us?

  7. Lyndall Rowley

    November 13, 2017 at 12:08 pm

    Andrew #45: I agree. Just the tip of the iceburg; and Jacqui Lambie is the latest to fess up. Mock outrage, yes – they’ve been caught out being very “sloppy” to say the least. Despite not bothering to check first and not actually knowing for sure, they filled in their nomination forms with false declarations about their citizenship status. The outrage is simply an attempted deflection of blame away from themselves to the ‘old’ Constitution. And it appears there are many citizens who’ve swallowed the propaganda (e.g. poor Barnaby; poor John Alexander).
    But there is no excuse; forms & backgrounding info for nominees fully explain and warn about what’s required to qualify and be eligible to stand as a candidate. As you say, surely it isn’t too much to ask of our country’s potential parliamentarians to do due diligence of their own eligibility for the legal paperwork to nominate.
    This latest move for ‘show & tell’ in Parliament is not necessarily a fool-proof fix and satisfactory end to the matter.
    I’m still flabbergasted by the deafening silence re the Criminal Code that already applies for providing false or misleading statements. But I’m guessing our leaders don’t want to mention ‘the war’. A penalty for up to 12 months imprisonment isn’t a good look for our MPs and Senators. And then there’s the unexplored issue surrounding unqualified/illegitimate Parliamentarians and voting legitimacy in Parliament, pay & pensions. Just the tip of the iceburg as well?

  8. Andrew

    November 12, 2017 at 9:49 pm

    My understanding is that anyone who is descended from British ancestors is probably British by descent, unless someone in the chain has renounced his or her British nationality. Therefore, I wouldn’t be surprised if the current batch of offenders weren’t just the tip of the iceberg. Rather than the mock outrage about how unfair it all is and the need to change the Constitution, surely it isn’t too much to ask for our politicians to submit to an independent check of their citizenship before they nominate?

  9. MjF

    November 11, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    How would’ve Bronwyn Bishop and Sussan Ley fared in this circus ?

  10. Mike Bolan

    November 11, 2017 at 3:00 pm

    #30,32,33 etc … Why aren’t the same standards applied to Centrelink robo-debt letter recipients being applied to politicians who are shown to be ineligible to sit in parliament? Or why aren’t the same ineligibility rules for asylum seekers applied to errant politicians?

    Surely if they expect the citizens to suffer whatever they have approved, should they not accept those same standards themselves?

  11. Russell

    November 11, 2017 at 10:25 am

    Re #35
    Funny that. Lynne Newington suggested that Turnbull has Jewish heritage. He does don the little skull cap often when he meets with Israeli dignitaries.

    Fancy even the PM being disqualified from office! No wonder he doesn’t want a proper “audit”.

    Maybe that’s why he allegedly shifts money off to the Caymans?

  12. Lyndall Rowley

    November 10, 2017 at 5:54 pm

    Bob #37 – No, not missed. I suspect our PM, the ex sometimes acting PM & National leader, the opposition leader and many other pollies, have been holding their collective breath, keeping mum about the full implications flowing from these s.44 breaches, and hoping it will all blow away before anyone else fully realises.

    At first I couldn’t understand the lack of leadership and why there wasn’t more decisive action taken when this entire story first broke; nor why it was treated/framed as just some minor administrative hiccup. Those olde tenets of openness, transparency, accountability, responsibility and good governance all seem to have been deemed irrelevant in this case.

    Instead, ultimately, the Constitution is being blamed for all of this fine mess. (Silly you – didn’t you realise? The pollies are not to blame; they’ve been caught up as innocent bystanders). So there’s been a subtle but constant building of a case to have to change the old & dated Constitution – that’ll fix and put an end to this current situation!

    Yeah, right. As though I trust this lot to fiddle with the Constitution just to avoid any consequences as well as suit their own self-interests i.e. save their powerful & well-paid jobs, and preserve their life-time pensions, prestige and post-pollie career paths. Do I look that stupid?

  13. Chris

    November 10, 2017 at 5:01 pm

  14. Betty

    November 10, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    #34 This is exactly why the Federal Government with an annual budget expenditure each year of over $422Billion desperately need’s a FEDERAL INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION. If they were all in NSW, NSW ICAC would of prosecuted them through the NSW DPP and put them on immediate long-term leave to dig’s over at Her Majesty’s Palace at Long Bay. Talking about a ICAC, we need one in Tassie too!. No use having the toothless and useless INTEGRITY COMMISSION. What an absolute joke they all are! and another complete waste of our tax-payer’s monies.

  15. Chris

    November 10, 2017 at 4:41 pm

  16. Bob Hawkins

    November 10, 2017 at 3:31 pm

    Have I missed something? What about the millions of dollars that illegitimate MPs removed from the Australian Parliament that have been paid in salaries and superannuation, plus all the extravagant perks they are entitled to?

    All those removed from the Australian Parliament were so removed because, by ignorance or intent, they had been defrauding the people of the existence of a fully legitimate parliament. Each and every vote could have turned on the decision of one of those discovered freeloaders.

    As well as the Libs/Nats’ serving deputy prime minister, House of Representatives member Barnaby Joyce, the High Court has removed five senators for failing to meet citizenship requirements since PM Malcolm Turnbull scraped back into office with a one-seat majority last year.

    All of this means that for years both houses of parliament have had members voting who were not entitled to vote.

    I’ve been pondering how the average Joe or Jean Blow would be treated if it were discovered that they had been pilfering the national coffers, either through ignorance or intent. I doubt they’d get away with a symbolic rap over the knuckles and told that they could re-apply for welfare entitlements. Rather, they would be promoted, with the help of our reactionary right-wing media, as shifty bludgers.

    Not only does bullshit-artist and nonsense-natterer Barnaby Joyce look as if he’s going to get away with keeping all of his illegally obtained benefits (must be millions doled out to him alone) he’s being allowed to stand again immediately for a seat that he has been fraudulently representing since 2013 after, it should be remembered, fraudulently representing Queensland in the Senate from 2005 to 2013.

    Another freeloader, as I read it, is senator Eric Abetz. He was in parliament for nearly 16 years before he produced a document relating to his renunciation of a citizenship other than Australian. He must have picked up millions since he was elected as a senator in 1994.

  17. Lyndall Rowley

    November 10, 2017 at 2:41 pm

    Make that seven not six … ? Just now John Alexander reportedly confirms he is a dual citizen which, in his position, would cause another by-election. He is going to resign and investigate his status thoroughly but he intends to contest again for Bennelong. He’s currently on TV campaigning with his list of achievements for example the number of table tennis tables provided, etc. The word “believe” keeps cropping up in parliamentarians’ own assessments of their citizenship status.

    These people hold the highest positions in our nation, under our great Constitution, to make critical decisions on our behalf and set our future direction, but they don’t even know or bother to know (or conveniently overlook) their own citizenship status when, as candidates, they first penned and signed up to declare they were qualified and eligible.

    ‘Beam me up, Scotty’

  18. Simon Warriner

    November 10, 2017 at 2:19 pm

    Perhaps while he is asking the High Court to rule on a few more individuals, Turnbull might ask where those of the Jewish faith are situated with regard to section 44 of the Constitution. Useful to clarify, even if none are currently so afflicted.

    interesting reading here:ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law#Law_of_Return

  19. John hawkins

    November 10, 2017 at 1:46 pm

    Lyndall …

    I am preparing another entry for Tasmanian Times on just this subject, for as you correctly say, thanks to the power of our politicians the penalties are never mentioned.

  20. Lyndall Rowley

    November 10, 2017 at 12:49 pm

    Hi John (from Chudleigh) – Thanks for your fine work on this subject.

    Just curious, but I was wondering why no-one in parliament or the media (or the Gov Gen) has mentioned the consequent Criminal Code penalty for non-compliance in these matters.

    The AEC provides a handbook of ‘backgrounders’ for intending candidates to nominate for election to the Australian Parliament. In the “Electoral Backgrounder: Constitutional disqualifications and intending candidates” under “False or misleading statements” it reads:

    “11. Division 137 of the Criminal Code Act 1995 (Cth) (the Criminal Code) makes it an offence to provide false or misleading information or documents in purported compliance with a law of the Commonwealth, with a maximum penalty of 12 months imprisonment.” (http://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Publications/backgrounders/constitutional-disqual-intending-candidates.htm)

    The AEC’s information regarding S.44 qualification requirements for candidates is comprehensive and clear. So, serving parliamentarians now pleading ignorance of their own ineligibility is not an excuse; and it’s obvious the provision of a hefty penalty under the Criminal Code isn’t a safe-guard against unqualified candidates becoming elected and entering parliament either.

    Therefore, for those six at least that nevertheless (stupidly, carelessly, disrespectfully or arrogantly) went ahead initially and provided false or misleading statements in their original documentation – why isn’t this already-existing penalty now being applied?

  21. Simon Warriner

    November 9, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    re # 31… in the first instance he didn’t get elected as he was appointed to fill a vacancy by virtue of being next on the party ticket. Once in he has made bloody sure he is always at the top of the ticket so he gets first dibs on the party votes. Party meetings with him present must be a real treat. Wonder how the membership numbers are holding up?

    re #26 … exactly the point the media are trenchantly avoiding. As a test of intelligence the results are very revealing – a point not lost on those of my acquaintance who are not normally interested in politics.

  22. Erica Cartman

    November 9, 2017 at 3:32 pm

    Will somebody explain to me, as a non-Tasmanian, how Eric Abetz ever got elected. The things he’s saying about the marriage vote reported in the mainland papers are appalling and will wreck the Liberal Party. How did he ever keep getting elected?

    I’ve got a lot of respect for Tasmanians and I think Jacquie Lambie is great to have in Parliament, but this man is an antediluvian monster.

  23. John Hawkins

    November 8, 2017 at 2:02 pm

    #27 … Dear Frank,

    I do not think you are correct and I refer you to EUDO Citizenship Observatory, Country Report: Germany, by Kay Hailbronner. Revised and Updated 201: http://eudo-citizenship.eu/docs/CountryReports/Germany.pdf

    The matter of Oaths will require considerable debate before the High Court and should be most entertaining.

    This 34 page document is complex, but will be seen to completely undermine the Abetzian claims.

  24. TGC

    November 8, 2017 at 12:36 pm

    Of course JL won’t qualify for a pension, should she be evicted.

  25. John Wade

    November 8, 2017 at 11:07 am

    The interesting question asked by Jackie Lambie is … what of the former politicians who are currently on pensions and hold dual nationality?

  26. Frank again

    November 8, 2017 at 12:23 am

    Re: … “German citizenship automatically expired the moment he became an Australian citizen unless he took deliberate action to retain it.”
    That is a fact, and I know it.
    It is even clearer than that: If you would apply for a (re)new German Passport, the one, or one of the first questions is asking if you have applied for, or have become a citizen of another country since your previous passport issue. If anyone has done so without previously applying for a specific reason to need dual citizenship – the case is very – very clear.

    Needless to say, I was German born, but now I am holding only one passport of identity – the Aussie one.

    Time to call it …

  27. john hayward

    November 7, 2017 at 11:21 pm

    What the citizenship fracas has illustrated is the inanity of conflating genealogy with the capacity to be an honest and intelligent representative in a democracy.

    No one seems too perturbed if our lawfully elected MPs are palpably both stupid and dishonest, despite the lessons of Abbott and Trump.

    John Hayward

  28. TGC

    November 7, 2017 at 10:19 pm

    I thought Jaquie Lambie was aboriginal – apparently she’s British! Very un-Australian.

  29. John Hawkins

    November 7, 2017 at 9:32 pm

    #21 … Jon Sumby:

    In another life your thoughts were entirely different when you made various comments regarding the transcript of the Abetz case as lodged by me here on Tasmanian Times: Hawkins v Abetz: What the High Court Said … Tasmanian Times 20/11/2010: http://oldtt.pixelkey.biz/index.php/article/hawkins-v-abetz-what-the-high-court-said-

    Has Abetz managed to get to you?

  30. John Hawkins

    November 7, 2017 at 9:06 pm

    #21 … Jon Sumby:

    Firstly Abetz renounced his German citizenship in 2010, not 2014.

    Secondly if you read the transcript of my case before the High Court, neither the judge nor Bennett the hired gun, but useless Abetz’s QC were not prepared to go down the road of a divided Germany and Citizenship in 1993/4.

    Thirdly Abetz as a lawyer and a barrister produced a so-called renunciation document in 1993. It is my opinion that that document is a fake.

    Fourthly will Abetz now produce and table all his documentation for 1993, the casual vacancy in 1994, and each nomination form for the subsequent elections – with supporting documents up to 2010 before the Senate?

    NAAAAAAH

    Abetz will only produce his renunciation certificate for 2010.

    Then what defence will you put up as the pot continues to call the kettle black?

  31. Pete Godfrey

    November 7, 2017 at 7:28 pm

    It still amazes me that the media don’t mention Eric Abetz and the fact that he may have sat for 16 years in parliament illegally.
    He needs to be compelled to show proof of his eligibility to be there and to explain the 16 years if he is found to have been sitting illegally.

    It certainly looks very hypocritcal now that he is lecturing others on the matter.

  32. Jon Sumby

    November 7, 2017 at 7:26 pm

    Re #16 … Brenda, I wouldn’t bother trying to edit Abetz’s WP page on the subject of dual nationality.

    German constitutional law is quite clear. When a German citizen takes up another citizenship they automatically lose their German citizenship, ipso facto Abetz has never had to make a formal renunciation. German law allows for a formal renunciation certificate for personal agency reasons, which is what Abetz did in 2014.

    The only possible way he could have held a dual citizenship under German law is after applying for Australian citizenship but before becoming an Australian citizen, Abetz took the deliberate step of filling in a multi-page application form, supplying supporting documentation, and writing a letter explaining his need to retain German citizenship after becoming an Australian citizen. This all would have to be sent to the German consulate for its consideration and its decision is discretionary – it can reject such applications.

    There is no evidence that Abetz ever did that.

    Abetz’s German citizenship automatically expired the moment he became an Australian citizen unless he took deliberate action to retain it. Because it expired automatically he doesn’t have to formally renounce but he can do so if he wanted to, and he did in 2014.

    If you edit WP do say he was a dual national, other people will take that down because that is factually incorrect.

  33. john hayward

    November 7, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    #19 … Bob Hawkins: You are not alone in finding Abetz’s seemingly complete immunity to the embarrassing effects of gross hypocrisy to be unsettling.

    Some have suggested that he suffers from a condition popularised by a Hitchcock movie title many decades ago. Others think he’s just trying to book a seat in the Ninth Circle.

    John Hayward

  34. Bob Hawkins

    November 7, 2017 at 3:46 pm

    Have just listened to ABC’s World Today. I can’t believe that, of all people, Eric Abetz would even think of buying into the dual citizenship debate. But there he was, as spooky as ever, intoning advice. Yet it’s not really surprising: he would be an expert in the question of dual citizenship.

  35. John Hawkins

    November 7, 2017 at 1:45 pm

    #16

    Brenda how very interesting.

    I think we are touching the tip of the iceberg that is Fake News controlled from the Dirt File HQ in Canberra that gives Abetz his power.

    Mantach was the most obvious manifestation when he was forgiven half a million for not spilling the beans.

    Liguer is smart … he has a user account with Wikipedia meaning that it is impossible to track his IP address.

    How many more readers of TT have had their Wikipedia contributions trashed by our political masters?

    We are well into the Orwellian world of controlled information.

  36. Nigel Crisp

    November 7, 2017 at 1:30 pm

    Re Brenda’s #16 post.
    This Liguer chap has certainly been busy:
    https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Liguer reveals he’s made 539 edits since 10th April 2015.
    My suggestion to Brenda & John Hawkins is to complain to the Wikipedia Administrators and keep doing so, and present your evidence !
    Just to prove my point, “Liguer” has fended off many editing complaints in the past as demonstrated by one randomly chosen log of User complaints at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Boing!_said_Zebedee

  37. Brenda Rosser

    November 7, 2017 at 11:15 am

    Re: I revised and edited the Wikipedia entry for Abetz under the section entry, Eligibility to hold Senate office at 0735 today 6 November 2017. By 0851 some 75 minutes later my entry had been removed and the subject matter re-edited by Liguer”…”

    The same thing happened to me when I tried to correct the erroneous figures of the extent of land in Tasmania protected from deforestation. Quoting official reports from the Tasmanian and Federal Government. Still it was erased and reverted back to the document’s original lies.

  38. Lynne Newington

    November 7, 2017 at 11:10 am

    Blimey Mr Hawkins has certainly set everyone on fire….
    Just as well Al Grassby……..

  39. Simon Warriner

    November 7, 2017 at 6:56 am

    re 13, and yet, these people are making the decisions that determine our futures, and our childrens futures.

    We need a better class of representatives if democracy is to survive.

    Vote Independent

  40. John Hawkins

    November 6, 2017 at 9:50 pm

    Turnbull must live in cloud cuckoo land.

    To get a job paying hundreds of thousands of dollars per annum the only requirement is to sign a nomination form that notes that you have made certain that you are not the citizen of another country.

    If you were born overseas, such as Abetz, or you had a parent that was, it is your job to renounce in writing your inherited citizenship before you sign the Nomination form.

    It is not all that much to ask.

    Those who fill in the form neglecting to take the appropriate action are highly unlikely to fess up under the proposed Turnbull legislation.

    If they have been caught out they will lie low until the next election and then do an Abetz and renounce their dual nationality once parliament is dissolved.

    They can correct their criminality in falsely signing the form and get away with years of illegality.

    I have no sympathy for any of them for they have fallen at the first fence by lying when signing their nomination form.

    It is simple as that.

  41. Tim Thorne

    November 6, 2017 at 1:31 pm

    It does seem unfair that the Liberal Party should be suffering, not only because of the dual nationality debacle, but also in the Pembroke by-election, after all the wonderful work that nice Mr Mantach put in on their finances. Perhaps they could bring him back to provide some extra moral fibre.

  42. Russell

    November 6, 2017 at 10:56 am

    Re #4 … “So, Turnbull is bringing this in …”

    There is absolutely NOTHING different in what Turdbull ‘has brought in’ and what was already in place!

    A full ongoing Independent Audit of ALL politicians citizenship status is required, and nothing less!

  43. Kevin Moylan

    November 6, 2017 at 9:42 am

    Is this the same ‘Bill Parry’ dec 2015 (Senator’s father) … for the Burnie Hospital Boys Club, who was appointed inaugural ‘Program Manager’ at Spencer Psychiatric Clinic and NW Tasmanian Psychiatry? I suspect so.

    A redundant ex-teacher in charge of mental health services, from Devonport to Queenstown. Parry had never set foot inside a psychiatric hospital. Only in TasMANIA!

    It gets worse. He also negligently hired “Dr FREAK”, … senior psychiatrist, (class action for 90 patients was aborted), and a … as our inaugural Director of Nursing. Previously ‘Human Resources.’ Chaos and pandemonium followed; then I blew the whistle and got rid of them all. I have not nursed since…relegated to the DSP (PTSD).

    It’s a dangerous and costly public service by exposing the frauds and shonksters in incestuous and nepotism riddled TasMANIA! It’s who you know.

    Mainlanders not welcome. “Back off or you’ll disappear, six-foot under.” Extract Chapter 13, “One Flew Over the Kookaburra’s Nest” ( http://oldtt.pixelkey.biz/index.php?/article/one-flew-over-the-kookaburras-nest/ ).

    Senator Parry (The Port Arthur Embalmer) was on $350,000 per year. Politicians who pretend to be someone they are not, must be penalised and all monies forfeited. Their Circle must be broken.

    (edited)

  44. John Hawkins

    November 6, 2017 at 7:47 am

    Dear Editor,

    The Wikipedia site for Senator Erich Abetz is very closely watched …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Abetz

    I revised and edited the Wikipedia entry for Abetz under the section entry, Eligibility to hold Senate office at 0735 today 6 November 2017.

    By 0851 some 75 minutes later my entry had been removed and the subject matter re edited by Liguer, presumably acting for Senator Abetz

    This has happened before.

    I ask who is controlling the information displayed on the Abetz Wikipedia entry and is this person working from his office?

    Abetz … try replying to the Editor, Tasmanian Times regarding my article of yesterday’s date regarding your citizenship.

    This would gain you more respect than creating fake news on Wikipedia!

    John Hawkins

  45. john hayward

    November 6, 2017 at 12:12 am

    #5 … Betty: MPs can lawfully accept bribes (aka political donations) legislate laws in payment and appoint lawyer mates to judicial and regulatory posts. Morally, they inhabit a different universe. See Chaos Theory.

    John Hayward

  46. Catherine McNeill

    November 5, 2017 at 10:39 pm

    I’ve been waiting for your reply, John. Please keep this alive.

  47. Simon Warriner

    November 5, 2017 at 10:11 pm

    Surely the failure to understand what is a fairly straightforward bit of English should be enough to disqualify those involved from the serious task of generating and reviewing legislation and making decisions that have life and death consequences.

    Why these representatives of their electorates have turned out to be so monumentally stupid is something our endless list of commentators on big salaries might like to turn their attention to.

    We need to fix it, and fast.

  48. Betty

    November 5, 2017 at 9:08 pm

    So why haven’t any of these so called Federal MPs and or Senators been charged with IMPERSONATING A COMMONWEALTH OFFICER/OFFICE, FRAUD and or PROCEEDS OF CRIME ? and then all these wages, travel allowances, super etc etc all been taken back?. Centrelink would do the same to anyone else! .

  49. Wining Pom

    November 5, 2017 at 7:26 pm

    So, Turnbull is bringing this in …

    ‘MPs and senators will be forced to lodge a declaration that they are not a citizen of any country other than Australia, under a plan announced by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull on Monday … If they had been a dual citizen, they would need to provide details and evidence of the time and manner in which their foreign citizenship was renounced or otherwise came to an end.’

    So will Abetz be honest?

  50. John Hawkins

    November 5, 2017 at 5:22 pm

    A Knight of the Garter is entitled on appointment to the Order to have his helm and arms displayed in the Garter Chapel at Windsor Castle.

    Should he be disgraced his helm is removed and booted down the Choir and out of the chapel into the moat.

    Such a shame we cannot do the same to the ex Speaker who thought he would get away with it and keep his snout well and truly in the trough.

    Now for the fines for sitting illegally in the Senate aka Brandis call as the AG over the Greens.

    Shysters all !

  51. Chris

    November 5, 2017 at 4:28 pm

    Liberals ticket wranglers got their due on Saturday/Son of the Football socker, the Choc Top Kid, screwed his face up and was face down in the dirt with Willy, both lauding their success in the election, the we lose we win.
    Edmund would turn in his grave and suggest a bribe or two to get home!

  52. john hayward

    November 5, 2017 at 11:37 am

    Constitutional buffs must be scratching their heads to explain the absolute difference between Eric on one hand and Scott Ludlum or Larissa Waters on the other. So am I.

    I suspect the secret is that a certain Olympian level of gall, deviousness and hypocrisy must qualify Lib pollies for legal and ethical immunity.

    John Hayward

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