The pokies spat

Former Labor staffer – once then Racing Minister Jim Cox’s “racing adviser” – Steve Old pulled no punches when fronting a Tasmanian parliamentary committee chaired by Greens’ pokies spokesman Kim Booth. Old is now CEO of the Australian Hotels Association in Tasmania ( HERE ). Here is ABC The World Today’s report:

ELEANOR HALL: The deal between the Prime Minister and the Tasmanian Independent Andrew Wilkie to limit poker machine betting is already generating heated parliamentary debate in Tasmania.

A proposal to introduce a $1 cap on poker machine bets sparked a furious exchange in a Tasmanian parliamentary committee.

The hearing degenerated into insults and swearing when the Australian Hotels Association president squared off against the committee’s chairman, as Timothy McDonald reports.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: The debate was clear evidence of just how emotive the issue of problem gambling can be.

The head of the Tasmanian branch of the Australian Hotels Association, Steve Old, told the committee chair, the Greens’ Kim Booth, that a $1 cap would do nothing to reduce problem gambling.

STEVE OLD: Come out and see what it is actually like a venue, instead of poking shit at something that you’ve not even been in, you’ve got no understanding of – actually, you go and sit in one of the venues, go into one of Darren’s venues, and actually see the people that play the machines.

Look at the fact that harm minimisation is a key thing for our industry and we are dealing with it. But don’t throw stones at something you’ve never seen. Because when have you, when did you last step foot in a venue?

KIM BOOTH: OK, what I have done…

STEVE OLD: When did you last step foot in a venue?

KIM BOOTH: OK, what I have done is stepped into a venue and seen a blind woman playing a machine with her husband holding her hand…

STEVE OLD: When?

KIM BOOTH: I’ve also had people…

Last year.

STEVE OLD: When? Show me proof? As you say, show me proof.

KIM BOOTH: I’ve also had people stand in my office…

STEVE OLD: (banging table) Show me proof, instead of scattergunning. You said ten minutes ago that we’ve got to show proof. You show me proof where, instead of making scattergun comments, that actually don’t back up by fact – you show me the fact, you show me the picture of this happening, and then we’ll sit down and have a discussion about it.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Kim Booth replied with a few strong words of his own.

KIM BOOTH: You’ll come with me, and you’ll speak to the husband whose wife suicided as a result of taking the pay roll and taking it down to the casino.

And every one of us here has got dozens of those examples. So don’t come in here and try and…

STEVE OLD: And that’s how we’ve got to make sure we address those people. But

KIM BOOTH: …and try and bully this committee, with this sort of…

STEVE OLD: I’m not bullying. Crap. Absolute crap.

KIM BOOTH: …anecdotal evidence. What you need to do is provide hard data, to this committee, which is trying to establish the truth of this, rather than just raising wild allegations.

STEVE OLD: Who’s raising wild allegations? You’ve just said one.

KIM BOOTH: What?

STEVE OLD: You’ve said I’ve got no proof to back it up.

KIM BOOTH: I don’t have to provide the evidence to this committee…

STEVE OLD: Well, there you go. You’ve just answered your own question.

KIM BOOTH: I’ll take you down to the cemetery and show you the corpses of some of these victims, if you’d like.

STEVE OLD: Mate, we can all, we can all play these ridiculous games. We’ve all said harm minimisation’s the key thing. Don’t try to play the heartstrings with me, mate.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Under an agreement with the Tasmanian independent, Andrew Wilkie, and the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the Federal Government will require every machine in Australia to have a precommitment system, which involves players setting limits on how much they want to spend over a specified time period.

Steve Old says the industry has no problem with precommitment, but $1 bet limits are a bridge too far.

The federal Independent Senator, Nick Xenophon, also gave evidence to the committee. He says it would be better to use both strategies.

NICK XENOPHON: It’s a bit like having a car. You don’t have to exclude airbags if you have seatbelts. You should have as many safety features as you can to reduce the risk of harm from poker machines.

ELEANOR HALL: Independent Senator Nick Xenophon, ending that report by Timothy McDonald.

Earlier on Tasmanian Times:
Wilkie urges Tasmanian Parliament to deliver on Pokies Reform

Steve Old interviewed on ABC Radio:

ABC936 Transcript – 5 October 2010: 9am – 9:30am
Steve Old – Australian Hotels Association
Louise Saunders – Compere

Compere: Yesterday, on Drive you heard from Andrew Wilkie, the Federal Member for Denison, who have evidence to a State Parliamentary Committee yesterday which is looking into poker machine reform and the $1 cap on bets and whether that should be introduced in Tasmania. There are, of course, other sides of evidence given as Kim Booth the Chair of the Committee said yesterday. Something like 16 submissions was taken. Steve Old from the Hotels Association was there and joins me now. News reports are suggesting that the meeting got rather heated yesterday. Is that the way you see it?

Steve OLD: Not particularly, it was just a bit of friendly fire between myself and Mr. Booth, and I’m sure Mr. Booth wasn’t offended by it. He does it to people in Parliament most days, so I’m sure he didn’t mind copping a little bit of it back. But, from my point of view, I am there to represent my members. My members in the industry are a bit sick and tired of people taking pot shots at us, and it was time to stand up, and that’s all we did. But I’m sure, you know, it was a bit of friendly fire between Mr. Booth and I am sure he wasn’t offended by it.

Compere: Do you think that Kim Booth has got it fundamentally wrong then in what he is trying to do because it will be detrimental to your members?

Steve OLD: It will have massive implications on my members. And what we’ve said to Mr. Booth is – and it’s clearly on the record – is that the industry is moving in conversations with the federal government through some of the work with Andrew Wilkie towards pre-commitment and how that might be situated, as in, what pre-commitment will mean. Obviously, the industry is going to work with the government on that. But it has been made clear that pre-commitment is Mr. Wilkie’s number one agenda, and that’s what the industry is working through with the government, and we are going to do that. So we’ve said to Mr. Booth, “Why have we then got this $1 bet limit bill in Tasmania that will seriously impact our state when no other state has gone down this path?” And it’s going to have massive ramifications for my members when, as I said, there’s clearly on the agenda a path that the federal government is going to look at and which the industry is going to work on as well. We are just trying to say to him: Why do you need this bill that is going to have massive impact on our membership but have no impact on problem gamblers? We provided some of that data yesterday, and we are going to provide some more in written form for the Committee, so we are quite confident that the other members of the Committee – and we know we are not going to change Mr. Booth’s mind, but we are quite confident that the rest of the Committee will see through this bill and vote against it.

Compere: Why is the $1 bet limit harmful to your members – do people stick around less? Why is it a detriment?

Steve OLD: Potentially, it could mean that people sit there longer. If a person wants to go in there and bet, and it’s only a $1 bet limit, they could actually impact and sit there longer playing the machines. For most people it’s not so much about how much they play each time. They go into these venues for a bit of entertainment and a bit of play. The main emphasis that Mr. Booth and his people have put on the $1 bet limit is it’s going to reduce problem gambling, and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it’s going to do one iota of difference to problem gamblers. What we’ve said is, as an industry, harm minimisation is always at the forefront of what we do, and we’re happy, as always, to sit down with governments and look at how we reduce the impact on problem gamblers. But we want it to be evidence based, that’s why we’re happy to sit down and look at the pre-commitment side and how that’s going to work. As I said, as an industry, we’re quite prepared to do that. But we’re not going to jump at shadows and do things that are going to have no impact. And when I questioned Mr. Booth yesterday as to what evidence he had to show that $1 bet limits would do anything, he didn’t have it. As I said, we’re not going to be a scapegoat industry that gets taken down by a party that has no interest. As I said to Mr. Booth yesterday, how about he comes and comes on a tour with me into a couple of venues, which he’s probably never, ever been into, and actually have a look at what actually happens in these venues, because I think the myth that he portrays out there isn’t actually reality.

Compere: Did he agree to that? Is he happy to come and have a look with you?

Steve OLD: No, I don’t think he’ll be keen to do that because it doesn’t go with what his mantra is. But that’s fine. As I said, the invitation is always there as it is with any Member of Parliament to actually – if they want to find out about our industry and understand it a bit more and the 23,000 people that are employed in hospitality – that’s restaurants and everywhere – that it’s not just about gaming. This is about getting people to actually understand how important and how much of a backbone the hospitality industry is to our state. And there’s an open invitation to anyone to come out with us and see some of our venues and chat to some of our operators and find out what sort of pillars they are to the community, especially in regional areas. They do a lot for regional Tasmania, and they do a lot for the tourism industry, and I think they don’t always get the credit that they should get.

Compere: Thank you. I’ll leave it there. That was Steve Old from the Australian Hospitality Association.